CAFE vs. Ethanol - who wins?

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There some sites on the web that will locate the nearest ethanol free gas stations to you. There are essentially none in Little Rock. A few about 20 min away. A friend told me their mostly mom-pop shops that charge more per gallon.

When I visit Oklahoma City (much of my family lives there) - there are numerous ethanol free gas stations - and they brag about it on big signs. Little Rock - nothing.

It's been a mystery to me why that four yrs ago my Sienna got around 25mpg HW. Now, I'm doing good to get 23mpg.
 
My 97 Honda gets 35mpg minimum at 200k miles... I don't know why they aren't doing what they were back then... it obviously was working..
 
We're heading Branson MO and Steal Your Dollar City tomorrow. I've already looked ahead and found the ONE gas station near Branson that sells real gas. I'M GOING THERE.
 
Have my own mpg test going to and from Branson (not good test since it's kind've uphill going, and downhill coming back.) The next wkend we go to Oklahoma City - very good test - flat both ways and 330 miles one way.

For OKC it'll be a full tank of the gas&corn going there, and a full tank of gasoline coming back.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Brenden
My 97 Honda gets 35mpg minimum at 200k miles... I don't know why they aren't doing what they were back then... it obviously was working..


That is not an ethanol issue. That is a safety and size issue.

Look at the specs of a car from the 80s or 90s versus its nameplate current MY version. There is zero similarity. Look at the HP numbers, the engine size numbers, the acceleration numbers, the cabin volume numbers.

We have gotten more obese, dumber, less capable to accelerate safely at merge areas, and meanwhile drive for ever more stringent safety requirements. All this forces more power from the engine, moving a heavier car.

Ethanol has less energy per volume so it will add to the situation. But the vehicle mass and higher and higher power levels are the real culprits.
 
Very good pts JHZR2, and I personally wish they would make another 50 HP rice chopper that can do 55mpg like the '85ish Honda CRX did.

BUT, note the consumer reports test - Tahoe gets 21mpg on gas. Same Tahoe on Gas&Corn gets 15mpg. That is huge!
 
Originally Posted By: ericthepig
Very good pts JHZR2, and I personally wish they would make another 50 HP rice chopper that can do 55mpg like the '85ish Honda CRX did.

BUT, note the consumer reports test - Tahoe gets 21mpg on gas. Same Tahoe on Gas&Corn gets 15mpg. That is huge!


You do realize they're talking about E85 and not E10, right??

I switch back and forth between 100% gas and E10 (the one 100% gas station in my area happens to be where I buy my dog food. My car uses more fuel than my dog eats, however). I don't doubt that I get better mpg w/the 100% gas--I trust the math;but the reality is that I've never observed a difference, and I track every tank. There's certainly not a 30% difference between E10 and 100% gas.
 
Thats about right.

My 2010 Dodge 4x4 is EPA rated:
18.0 mpg highway (G100)
12.0 mpg highway (E85)


It gets:
21.0 mpg highway (G100)
20.2 mpg highway (E10)

Although my truck is flexfuel equipped Ive never tried E85 as its obvious you would lose a lot of fuel mileage.

Why are you so concerned about E85 since you dont have a vehicle that can burn it and its at best a break even in the amount of fossil fuel we burn (with all it takes to produce and transport it)?

Cars from the good old days were not as good as you think. A 2012 Hyundai Accent (Manual or Auto) would have been rated at roughly 57 mpg using 1983 methods. Current window stickers are reduced 22% Highway and the increase in speed in 2008 reduced them roughly another 10%.

Its pretty easy to beat the highway rating today. As a matter of fact my lifetime average in both the 5.0 Mustang and Dodge 4x4 in mixed driving are about 5-10% higher than the highway rating.
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: ericthepig
Very good pts JHZR2, and I personally wish they would make another 50 HP rice chopper that can do 55mpg like the '85ish Honda CRX did.

BUT, note the consumer reports test - Tahoe gets 21mpg on gas. Same Tahoe on Gas&Corn gets 15mpg. That is huge!


You do realize they're talking about E85 and not E10, right??

I switch back and forth between 100% gas and E10 (the one 100% gas station in my area happens to be where I buy my dog food. My car uses more fuel than my dog eats, however). I don't doubt that I get better mpg w/the 100% gas--I trust the math;but the reality is that I've never observed a difference, and I track every tank. There's certainly not a 30% difference between E10 and 100% gas.


Yes, the figures I've heard: E10 requires takes 3% more fuel by volume to cover the same distance as gasoline, but E85 is 33%. Very few ethanol users are running E85.
 
Gene is right about the CAFE ratings being different now than 25 years ago. I think the EPA changed the test standard back in 2008. IIRC, there was about an 8% drop as an overall average from the old test method to the new.

But anyway, I have assumed for a long time that E85 would cause about a 33% drop in fuel economy because it contains 33% less energy per gallon than good old gasoline. It would at least be cost competitive if you could buy it for 75% the cost of gas. I have only ever seen one station where it was that cheap.

Now Congress is considering doing away with the ethanol subsidy. That ought to kill E85 deader than yesterday's mackerel. It would make the price go up about 43 cents per gallon.
 
I did a test recently in my Corvette, one short highway run to work with Shell 91 (no ethanol) and one run with Petro Canada 91 (up to 10% ethanol) and under identical conditions (cruise set to 100km/h, trip computer reset at precisely the same spot in both runs) I got 32.5 MPG with Shell and 32.6 MPG with Petro Canada.
 
A friend of mine thinks it's vehicle dependent. His Ford conversion van (8 cyl) sees a significant increase in mpg on regular gas, but he didn't give me the %. But said his Chrysler Mini-van sees no benefit.

Very relieved to see the various posts in this thread where the mpg diff (E10) is minimal. I was getting really bummed about being force feed a low output fuel. But doesn't seem as bad as I initially made it out to be.

Still hope congress drops the subidies on this stuff.
 
its what ethanol does to the engine parts thats the problem..our ethanol free station here, which is also a repair shop, sees all the time the damage that ethanol does...so he fights to get ethanol free gas...conoco station..i also notice through out the years when i fill up with e10 shell it shows only 360 miles on the fill 20 gal. tank..compared to non ethanol fill 20 gal tank shows 480 miles on that tank of gas..has anyone else noticed this?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: ericthepig
Very good pts JHZR2, and I personally wish they would make another 50 HP rice chopper that can do 55mpg like the '85ish Honda CRX did.

BUT, note the consumer reports test - Tahoe gets 21mpg on gas. Same Tahoe on Gas&Corn gets 15mpg. That is huge!


You do realize they're talking about E85 and not E10, right??

I switch back and forth between 100% gas and E10 (the one 100% gas station in my area happens to be where I buy my dog food. My car uses more fuel than my dog eats, however). I don't doubt that I get better mpg w/the 100% gas--I trust the math;but the reality is that I've never observed a difference, and I track every tank. There's certainly not a 30% difference between E10 and 100% gas.


The difference between E10 and E0 should not be 30%. The difference between E85 and E0/E10 may be 30ish%.
 
Originally Posted By: ericthepig
There some sites on the web that will locate the nearest ethanol free gas stations to you. There are essentially none in Little Rock. A few about 20 min away. A friend told me their mostly mom-pop shops that charge more per gallon.

When I visit Oklahoma City (much of my family lives there) - there are numerous ethanol free gas stations - and they brag about it on big signs. Little Rock - nothing.

It's been a mystery to me why that four yrs ago my Sienna got around 25mpg HW. Now, I'm doing good to get 23mpg.


Glenn's in Bryant is ethanol free,and my Formula runs like it
's had a tune up after filling up there. That list at pure-gas is a godsend.
 
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