Bypass vs. conventional systems

Status
Not open for further replies.
Quote:


Let's agree that nearly everyone who is a member of this site is just a little "over the top" considering all the "lube" topics covered here.




Sure. It's painfully (well, not really painfully) obvious
smile.gif



Quote:


We all, myself included, tend to want more for and from our vehicles than the average guy.




I don't think that it's restricted to our vehicles. We're probably a group who typically look in the mirror and NEVER say "You're very common and conventional in all that you do. There's nothing exceptional in your plane of existence and you can effect nothing in any manner that will ever have any impact of merit." In this group, the only conventional aspect to anyone is that it's perhaps extremely unconventional and novel to actually respect convention ..making them truly exceptional. We're a nation of people who (only) when all else fails ...we consult the instructions.

Quote:


But I think even we get caught up in our own minutia, and lose sight of what is pratical.




..without a doubt this is surely so.
grin.gif
So
confused.gif
Most of us live on a diet of rehashing the finer points of tiddlywinks waiting for some real meat in the advancements/revelations/evolutions of the topic(s).

Quote:


I am convinced that with examples such as Case 1 and Case 2,




Well, according to one of your examples, if we're to give it any weight, you're a fool to even bother changing the oil. Are you promoting that notion along side the "just change the oil and you'll get there". Which one is a false notion ..and which one is valid? Both appear to carry equal weight in your argument.
dunno.gif


Is the routine maintenance person just a victim of "belief" ...or faith? Is the negligent owner the true enlightened one in saying that routine maintenance is not needed for long engine life? Does that owner have the monopoly on truth? If you asked them, I would assume that the answer would be "yes".

You just draw your line of preventative measures a bit lower than some ..a lot higher than others. Are you wasting your time?
 
Quote:


Motor Oil is like a pair of pants. You can let them get dirty and toss them or you can clean them and keep using them. I would rather clean the oil than toss it. If the oil looks like it is getting oxidized I will install an oil cooler. If the oil is getting dirty I will install a submicronic bypass filter as soon as I get the truck/car home. If I don't like the feel of the oil I will drain it. It won't take me long to determine how often I need to change the filter and add a quart of new oil. Additives last a lot longer in clean oil. New oil added at filter changes adds enough new additives. Most additives are there to compensate for allowing the oil to get dirty and contaminate the engine parts. If you can get it all working right you have eliminated routine oil drains.




This is the reason I use a bypass filter, along with the fact that I use expensive synthetic oils and if I could I would add a bypass filter to everything I own.
 
There are lots of things that aren't really justified if we base them on other's performance ...or ANY other performances. Synthetic oil is not needed to get a long life out of an engine ...yet it has its benefits. Those benefits may (or may not) pay off for any given owner over any given duration. The thing is, you never know what benefit you'll need ..nor what your outcome is for a road not taken.

Sure, you will probably have your car rust out from underneath you before your engine seizes. That just means that you're not washing and waxing (or mending and repainting) your car/truck in a proper manner to match the level of longevity that you will probably attain with your current preventive measures employed for the running gear.
 
The title is misleading. It's not bypass vs convention system, it's to bypass or not. Every case you talk about includes a ff system. You could consider just running an inlet screen and a bypass system with no ff filter.

Another comment I'd like to make about bypass system and a small pickup, a Toyota 1978 with the 20R engine. My cousin ran one 470k+ miles, with a Frantz on the oil and gas. When if was finally time to rebuild at 400k+ miles the rebuild required very few new parts. The gaskets and seals just wore out. The crank and rod journals were just polished, not turned. The cylinders were honed and new rings were used, no new pistons but fitted with new wrist pins and all new valves just because the exhaust valves need to be replaces and it was easier just to do a complete valve job and fly cut the head. The timing chain, tensioner and guides were replaced along with sprockets, all gaskets and seals. I think the bypass filter delivered an engine that was cheap and quick to return back to service. He used Castrol 10w-30 and gradually moved to 20w-50 to keep up with the oil consumption. This engine aged very gracefully and I think the bypass filter helped.
 
Insolubles and soot levels are not a measure of wear on an engine. Wear metal levels are. If you can significantly reduce the amount and size of wear metals worn from your bearings, rings and cylinder walls, your engine will theoretically last longer.

True, the average person won't see the benefit of a bypass filtration system. And since a pristine, non-oil burning engine gets the same score as an oil burner that still runs, justification will be difficult. But some of us push our vehicles a lot further than the average person, and a healthy drivetrain often justifies keeping the vehicle and maintaining it longer than you would otherwise. If you're into statistics, you will agree with this.

I kept my Corolla for 297,000 miles without a bypass system. It burned a fair amount of oil when I got rid of it, and I would have certainly kept it much longer if the engine was in mint condition. I log over 50,000 miles each year on the vehicles I drive, so it is imperative that they last longer than the average car on the road.

If I can get one more year from a car, the savings is significant. My last UOA using a bypass system suggests that I will definitely get more than 300,000 miles on one of my current vehicles without having to pour a quart of oil in at each fillup.

Consider this: Your Kidneys are bypass filters, and they keep your blood clean and healthy without a full-flow filter.
cool.gif
 
I completed my study, and tried to type in all the worthy data, but this silly webpage kicked me off before I could hit the "continue" button.

Anyway, I'll prepare a seperate document, and just post that as an uplike.
 
dnewton3, you raise several interesting points and questions, but missed the boat on this one

Quote:



Engines are so well made in the last 15 years, and oils are so good now, that bypass filtration is probably un-neccessary for the average guy with vehicles in his garage.





The improved quality of engine design and manufacturing has made filtration more important, not less.

As tolerance control has improved engines are built to run at smaller nominal clearances. Journal bearings are as subject to insults by particles as they ever were, so the smaller clearances make even smaller particles a problem.

That said, except for a person striving for heroic life from an engine, by-pass filters are still just an interesting hobby.
cheers.gif


I never was a good bypass filter candidate although I did briefly use a TP filter on a VW in 1971.

I used to think that 200,000 miles was a nice time to get rid of a car, but now that I'm a couple of months away from 65 and driving about 12k miles a year, that would most likely mean I would never get to buy a new car. 50k miles is starting to look like a reasonable interval now.
cheers.gif
 
Quote:


but now that I'm a couple of months away from 65




Hey, pal ..it's looking younger all the time. But I do agree that the image of "half the distance to the goal line" has more meaning than it ever did before
grin.gif


Quote:


That said, except for a person striving for heroic life from an engine, by-pass filters are still just an interesting hobby.




Yes, unless you're striving to prove something, there's not much practical sense to it. You're mostly a high grade organ donor for someone else's vehicle.
 
Quote:


Quote:


but now that I'm a couple of months away from 65




Hey, pal ..it's looking younger all the time. But I do agree that the image of "half the distance to the goal line" has more meaning than it ever did before
grin.gif







The term "lifetime warranty" doesn't mean as much to me as it used to either.
crackmeup.gif
 
OK - mine final numbers are in. I've decided to just post by typing and forego the attachments. Data analysis is boring to read anyway. Data was taken from 50 vehicles without bypass and 50 with bypass. I chose some vehciles for their consistent repeat postings showing individual engine trends, and others were chosen to represent mainstream. No vehicles were included which had obvious mechanical breakdown/problems which would skew normality. The data is mined from this site only, from posts in the last 2.5 years, so it's fairly fresh; if someone lied on a post, I can't help that, but all in all, the data seemed reasonable and trends were within statistical normality tests.


Numbers on left are W/O bypass, on right are WITH bypass.
Avg veh milage: 85,874 68,380
avg oil milage: 7,636 12,620
Fe: 28 25
Cu: 7 12
Al: 6 5
Pb: 6 8
Insolubles: .30 .27


As you can see, the oil usage was not quite double with bypass systems, but the wear metals were all nearly the same. Statistically, they were all well within a standard deviation. Overall, this shows that you can change oil more often and get the same net result as running a bypass system. I would say that based on overall engine life, these vehicles were worn in enough to give solid mid-life numbers.

Many would (rightfully) argue of other benefits of bypass systems such as increased cooling capacity due to more oil capacity, but I could get that with an additional large FF filter just as easily. Others would claim that cleaner oil makes seals last longer, but there is not data to prove/disprove that - so believe as you might. Some claim that bypass filtration takes out the fuel dilution, but I don't believe that at all; a typical bypass filter cannot distinguish between the hydrocarbon based liquid fuel and the hydrocarbon based liquid oil. That's the reason raw fuel is so dangerous; it masquarades around as oil, but has none of the benefits.

Particle count is the one big ?????? Are insolubles directly, indirectly, or not at all in a relationship with wear indicators. I'm not sure, and according to a post I had with Gary Allen nearly 2 months ago, neither is he. Gary has pointed out recently that particle count is significant when considering filtration; he is indeed correct. But I would state that we use UOAs to check the actual damage being done to an engine. Wear metals are the indication of normal/abnormal wear. Insolubles and particle counts are the indication of POTENTIAL for wear, but wear metals are the RESULT of wear. The lower your wear metals, the better. It's all about a means to an end. This study shows that you can just as easily keep your engine running well by changing oil more often, compared to bypass filtation.

One thing that stands out in the raw data is that TP filtration does not filter down any finer that elemental bypass systems. When the data is sub-set-filtered in just bypass systems, there was no clear winner in regard to brand of manufacturer; they were within 10% of each other, and the variation in readings was directly due to the length of service, not brand or style. In other words, shop for the system that fits your financial and OFCI needs, and not based on claims.
 
Quote:


One thing that stands out in the raw data is that TP filtration does not filter down any finer that elemental bypass systems.





Again, without qualification (at least in your "conclusion"), you're extending the assertion beyond what the data can support. You should have said "..to the limitations that it alters UOA indicators. Since particle count was not included in this evaluation, I must humbly submit that there is the total possibility that my supposition is totally (to some unknown magnitude of significance) flawed."

You're putting a boxer and a wrestler in the same ring and they're boxing, not wrestling. You're using a rating system for the condition of the oil to determine the performance of filtration ..when the performance of filtration only evidences itself in UOA to a very limited degree. True particle level filtration is non-existent in any practical way in combustion (and most others) environments. You would also be challenged to not filter out desired particles while removing unwanted particles. The ability to alter UOA (with reads
When a filter manufacturer rates a filter they don't use UOA as a primary source of raw data. They use particle counts. The filter doesn't care whether it's insolubles or larger chunks of any composition.

It would be really hard, imo, to construct a test that would clearly define the impact of bypass filtration in terms of wear reduction. There was a study that showed that reductions to the 10um level resulted in reduced abrasive wear (I'm pretty sure this is an SAE paper on a diesel) This strongly suggests that the lower you go, the less wear will occur to the limits that >10um abrasive particles contribute to measured alterations to the engine's life. That is, we don't know the ROI, in terms of wear, on finer levels of filtration.

As far as tp versus traditional media ...it's pure speculation from either end of it. There's no bona fide test that I'm aware of that shows the efficiency of tp filtration ..but again, the immutable filtration triangle tends to support the notion (not confirm it) that tp is finer filtration with a short service life. The fact that it's also an economical media source is a favorable, but inconsequential, co-benefit in terms of its effectiveness.

If I hadn't had my minivan stolen (it had 5 MG filter inside it), I would have ganged 4 tp filters in parallel and used the 5th one as a downstream governor (to control flow). This should have made an apples to apples (or closer to) comparison with spin-on media. I cannot duplicate this experiment due to costs. I'm not going to buy 5 MG filters at available prices. I got these at salvage.


In conclusion
grin.gif
it's clear that you "want" to find this result in the compiling of your data. That's why it's easy to find a few flaws in it. As far as my "proof" that tp is finer ..this is, admittedly, formed with indirect and circumstantial evidence and therefore an "opinion" ..but I still see only like evidence to support your assertion that it's not finer than alternatives. You too are using indirect evidence to support your assertions.


(in advance, I beg pardon for any that are offended by the following adapted statement-it just seems so funny in the extreme depiction in example. For many it will cause a snort - for others- my apologies)

It's very much like saying "I've got proof you're *****. My daddy says ***** is (blank) and you're (blank) therefore I go under the premise that you're ******. QED *****. although to a much higher level of socialization and rationalization.


cheers.gif
 
Good example. My daughter's 91 Taurus is running strong @ 160k+. We paid $300 for it at the end of her freshman year at college with, IIRC, 130k. Great beater. The body, like your sister's, is rusting. I don't care. As long as it gets an inspection sticker ..it's being driven.

SO AFTER SHE TANKED THE CAR WITH THE RADIATOR PROBLEM..YOU DECIDE ( WISELY SO) TO GIVE HER A BEATER..AND MAYBE TEACH HER A LIFE LESSON ?
smile.gif
 
Off topic:

Well, she had the Taurus when she destroyed my minivan's engine (basically warped the heads). She needed it to move stuff and just ignored my cautions. She's just been lucky with the Taurus in that it never needed too much in mechanical attention. Brakes are routinely warn out and replaced....but that's her boyfriend's problem now.

I may be getting this car back. I'll be happy to drive it. She needs a heater core now ..and is debating on changing it out ..or just using an electric heater via the cigarette lighter/power port.

This vehicle, and my minivan, were what (totally) convinced me of the value of Auto-Rx. This 3.0 Vulcan consumed oil by the hour of operation. After Auto-Rx it went to months of operation.

She's slowly learning stuff the hard way. So far, like many youth, she's able to cope with her need to juggle the consequences of her actions or lack of actions. Eventually she'll figure a way to employ her experience to further the notion of "avoided costs". She's still at the "on the fly" status of hitting obstacles and detouring around them in the easiest "on the fly" manner...instead of mastering them. All in due time. Sooner or later she'll run out of hands (or money) to handle that which needs to be juggled.
wink.gif
 
Gary Allen: Sorry to hear about your van being stolen. Were they after your cool "over the engine" mounted filter? Sad, indeed.

dnewton3: I have had the same trouble understanding why a by-pass filter does not reduce the insoluble level in a UOA. Hence, the sticky at the top of the forum. Put it this way. The FF filters and the bypass filters will limit the same amount of sludge floating around in the system. You have proven that much with your research. The data is there.

However, you have NOT proven the particle size or composition of the goo (insoluble level). Just that both have about the same amount of goo in the oil. I know, goo is such a technical term. Look it up.

An analogy: The FF filter's sludge or goo (insolubles) is the stuff you can make 200 grit sandpaper with. In comparison, the bypass filter sludge or goo (insolubles) is the stuff they make 600 grit sandpaper with. Same amount of volume of sludge. Finer grit. They will both wear out an engine, but the 600 grit will take a whole lot longer to do so. Particle counts would support this analogy. Then, the decrease in engine wear would be empirical. Or, you could do a study like you mentioned previously with two cars.

Bottom line: Without proper particle counts...it is all meaningless. Again, you can just dump the sump (hit the reset button), but you still had "200 grit" stuff floating around until you did so. No getting around it.
grin.gif
 
I own 2 vehicles, both used...well used. I can't afford to get new car, so what I have I like to keep running as long as I can. I figure if I put in a bypass filter in my 96 Buick PA, I will run up some miles and in a few years the miles (with a bypass filter) will have had less effect on bearings and other important parts than if I change the oil and filter. I have always chosen very good oil, as I feel it is cheaper than buying "cheap" oil. I am basically lazy and don't always have the time to change the oil at due times. I try to change the oil in the fall and in the spring. Some change more often, others less often. With the bypass, I believe I can change the oil about once every year or so, and save polluting the environment that much. With the wear potential of not running the bypass filter I feel my car would have excessive wear and I would be replacing bearings and notice loss of performance sooner than without the bypass. So with the Baldwin B50 at around $6.00 I believe it is a wise move on my part.

Also, there was a study done in the oil particle size and wear done at Detroit, using standard test methods that show the "X" factor of life extension of the engine with smaller contaminant size. This is from the SAE Test paper: http://www.oilguard.com/HomepageExtendingEngineLife.htm

I do agree that most cars are either going to be sold/traded or rust away before "most" major engine wear comes to bear, but it is that few exceptions of "most" that I use the bypass filter as I regard it as just a little bit of extra insurance for my engine.
 
SWHeat has given a good analogy with his 200/600 grit example. Seems reasonable. But it still seems a tad empty in the final review and this is why.

Abrasives cause damages. Whether it's sand paper, oil particles, or personalities. This is the "cause".

Results indicate the final count of something. This would be the "effect".

If you sand away with 200 grit paper and remove 1/8" of wood, there should be approximately xx.xx grams of matter on the floor. If you used 600 grit paper and removed 1/8" of matter, there should still be xx.xx grams of matter on the floor. Sure the dust would be finer, but the amount of damage should be the same.

Here's an analogy that makes more sense to me when speaking of particle size. Consider a hail storm. Itty bitty little hail, no matter how prolific in quantity, does little to no damage to your roof. As the hail grows in size the potential for damage grows too. At some point the hail becomes almost a certainty to wreak havoc. So, when the insurance adjuster comes to review your claim, does he measure the little balls of ice on the ground, or does he measure the roof? The particle size tells you nothing but POTENTIAL for damage; damage is measured in this case by square footage and % of aggregate material remaining. In a UOA, we measure wear metals and insolubles. Wear metals tell of damage done; insolubles tell of potential damage.

This is why, to me, a UOA is more important that particle counts. UOAs tell of the damage done. Particle counts in a filter tell of the "potential sized particles" able to do damage.

Unfortunately, I don't possess good enough computer skills to upload a graph, but imagine along with me. Two vehicles with similar profiles and driving patterns. Both get 10k of break in, then only one goes to bypass filtration. After an oil change, the two will have nearly identical rate of wear metals, until at some point, the bypass filter will be able to hold a level, where the escalation continues in the other. After a few UOAs, the conventional system shows signs of needing changed at xxxx miles to stay at the same level as the bypass version. After that oil change, the counter is reset to zero, and the conventional system actually has less material floating around for a while. Even though it may have bigger particles, it has less of them, until that breakeven point is reached again. And remember that bypass filtration only gets 5-10% of an opportunity to remove anything past what the FF is capable of. So, while a conventional system would have flushed ALL the contaminants, the bypass system still has at least 18 of 20 particles still going around and around. Particle counts are the best way to compare filtration, and the matter they catch. What a particle count won't tell you is how much damage was done by what was missed; that's the job of a UOA.

Now - I always go back and review my statements after Gary analyzes them. He is again correct that it's not really directly accurate for me to say that TP doesn't filter finer, because I didn't study particulate counts. But on the other hand, it's not particulate counts that we look at here anyway, it's UOAs. And they are measured primarily in wear metals. The DATA shows no statisical evidence that one bypass system performs better than another. The DATA shows that if you change oil often enough, with UOAs as your guide, you can achieve the same level of protection as bypass systems by just increasing your OCIs. Results are reported with DATA, the rest is some combination of supposition, conjecture, and rhetoric.

You see, I don't really believe that particle count is nearly as important as a UOA. At the end of a football game, you could have more yards in rushing and passing, but still loose the game, because we "measure" the inputs (yards) and the outcome (points). In a similar fashion, you can remove more particulate with a bypass filter (inputs), but the UOA is the proof of success (outcome).
 
Quote:


Here's an analogy that makes more sense to me when speaking of particle size. Consider a hail storm. Itty bitty little hail, no matter how prolific in quantity, does little to no damage to your roof. As the hail grows in size the potential for damage grows too. At some point the hail becomes almost a certainty to wreak havoc. So, when the insurance adjuster comes to review your claim, does he measure the little balls of ice on the ground, or does he measure the roof? The particle size tells you nothing but POTENTIAL for damage; damage is measured in this case by square footage and % of aggregate material remaining. In a UOA, we measure wear metals and insolubles. Wear metals tell of damage done; insolubles tell of potential damage.




The hail storm analogy doesn't work for me. Mostly because you could have it hail all day long with the smaller hail and cause no 'perceptible' damage at all to the roof. A few of the big hail stones and the damage is very perceptible. i.e. measurable. The insoluble level just tells you if your filter is working or not, nothing more. It is a pass/fail type of measurement, very vague. My analogy still stands for content of said insoluble level as none of them were actually measured for content, we will never know.

Quote:


This is why, to me, a UOA is more important that particle counts. UOAs tell of the damage done. Particle counts in a filter tell of the "potential sized particles" able to do damage.




Uhhh. Yeah. Plus particle counts add to the cost.

Quote:


Particle counts are the best way to compare filtration, and the matter they catch.




Exactly my point.

Quote:


What a particle count won't tell you is how much damage was done by what was missed; that's the job of a UOA.




Yes. However, by your own DATA, the bypass system was on for about an average of 5K more miles with nearly identical wear rates. Sandpaper analogy still holding.

Quote:


The DATA shows that if you change oil often enough, with UOAs as your guide, you can achieve the same level of protection as bypass systems by just increasing your OCIs.




A few threads on this board have mentioned the idea that with the new Amsoil oil filters that you no longer need a bypass system. Maybe there is some merit to it.

However, per your analysis, IF the new Amsoil filters did filter better, but still had the same wear rates in a UOA, even if you had more miles on the oil....it would be the same.

For each filter (bypass or regular) and oil combination you try out, you should do a UOA at 1K, 2K, 3K, 4K, 5K, etc. to see when to change the oil. What would you do if the 5K analysis came out better than the 3K? Way too many variables with UOA's. That is why you need several in a row to "trend" and engine. Also why you need a guru like Terry to read the tea leaves for you.

Quote:


Results are reported with DATA, the rest is some combination of supposition, conjecture, and rhetoric.




The only real data would be for a controlled study with an engine tear down. That would be the "real" DATA, not UOA.

Quote:


You see, I don't really believe that particle count is nearly as important as a UOA. At the end of a football game, you could have more yards in rushing and passing, but still loose the game, because we "measure" the inputs (yards) and the outcome (points). In a similar fashion, you can remove more particulate with a bypass filter (inputs), but the UOA is the proof of success (outcome).




Full swing from: "What has become apparent to me is that a UOA may be only telling part of the story. But it makes me ponder; why do we all put so much faith in a UOA here on this site if it's only part of the story?"

For an apples to apples comparison, you would need the same mileage and engine conditions for each UOA.

Anyway, thanks for collecting the data. That is a pain. Keep those OCI's nice and short. LOL
 
Your sandpaper analogy is missing one element: time. It takes longer with finer paper to produce the same damage result. Hence the longer OCI for a bypass system - it takes longer to accumulate the same level of wear metals. Also, sandpaper doesn't change grit level. With bypass, it will eventually level off, but with conventional systems, you are constantly moving up the scale from zero, so you would have to imagine moving from 1000 grit paper to 900 grit to 800 .... until you got to the 200 grit, and then go back to 1000 with the OCI. Still it is the average accumulation of wear metals that tell the tale of damage. Particle counts only predict wear potential. The insolubles reported in a UOA are a report of potential damage.

If you google the words "oil filter study" you'll see a link to a couple of guys who ran some lengthy tests on oils (Mobil 1 and Amsoil) with FF filtration. Their results are posted. It is entirely evident that UOA trends AND limits are needed to establish the health of you engine (or gearbox, or pump, or whatever). There are examples in their tests of wear metals actually moving up/down in levels, even though they hadn't changed oil for up to 15,000 miles. The UOAs show that wear metals are somewhat alive; by that I mean they kind of vary up/down from report to report, but statistically you can predict the RANGE of motion, but not the direction or magnitude of motion within the range. I.E. - a wear metal, say Iron, may move from 20ppm to 22ppm to 17ppm to 19ppm to 18ppm in 5 consequtive tests, but as long as they are within one standard deviation, they are in "control". As long as your levels are in "control" and under the limits you can accept, and there is no alarming trend, you're good to go.

Hey - feel happy with your bypass system. It does a great job of reducing particulate down to a finer level than a FF filter. But the PROOF is that the wear indicators show that characteristic is managable with OCIs. Try as you might, no one has convincing evidence otherwise so far.
 
Oops - reread your post SWHeat and time was included; my mistake. I wish I could figure out how to pull quotes from posts like you guys do; it would help my posts. I have to constantly move up and down the screen.
 
L@@K here

This is with an Amsoil bypass after 20k on one of Michael Sparks engines.

57,307 ppm @ 2 micron
16,625 ppm @ 5 micron
0 ppm @15 micron
0 ppm @ 25
0 ppm @ 50
0 ppm @ 100

Now I imagine that you'll eventually get enough 1000 and 2000 grit stuff that you're doing a fine "glass beading" job on the internals ..but it's surely preferred to 100 grit in any amount.

To edit:

Reply to your own post. In the URL field, replace replypost with editpost. DON'T HIT ENTER. Instead, use the button on the field or move your cursor to the end of the URL within the field before hitting ENTER. That is, cursor at editpost(blinkie).php? NO. Move the cursor all the way to the end of the URL. You'll then get to edit your post.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top