bypass filters and oil pressure

[Nebraskan]

LOL

Yes there seems to be lots!
FWIW, I took my dual remote, pictured on here, and took off the ends and filters. I then used my Ohaus gram/oz scale to measure how much force it takes to move the ball off it's seat to allow oil to flow around it. It is not a very strong spring. I measured 5.0 oz (give or take a few 10th oz) to move the ball enough to pass by oil...perhaps 0.020". Now, all around that would amount to enough oil not to starve an engine, all else being good.

In other words, you would have to have very very low oil pressure for oil to not impart some sort of pressure against the ball/spring affair. I would say 1 lb pressure would still move the ball and move oil, not much but move it.

The bypass filter is tighter and will naturally take a lot more pressure to move oil through it. Let's say for practicality, that your idling at 900 rpm and your idle PSI is around 20. I would suspect that the lions share of the oil is now going through the full flow and maybe just a trickle is going through the bypass. It's relative and proportional to each other. When there is plenty of pressure then the bypass will be able to function better and still the lions share is going to the full flow.

Now with my '96 Buick PA, it takes the 3980 filter or 3387A(standard OEM Spec.) I don't know about the Baldwin/Hasting, or Super-Tech (made by Champion, or others, but the WIX does not have any pressure relief for this filter. I translate that into "DON'T PLUG IT!!"

I've got that bypass sandwich adapter that the race car mechanic gave me. It has the relief poppet sort of valve on the upstream side tat was to take the oil to an oil cooler in the radiator on a Buick Regal, 3.8 L V-6 engine of GM. It even had hose that was steel that went to the radiator. Now the sandwich adapter was designed for oil bypass for oil coolers. In a cooler there is NO pressure obstruction, or little is this correct? So in essence (for cooler app.) MOST of the oil bypasses the full flow, goes to a cooler in the radiator, and then back to the sandwich to blend with the rest of the oil on the outside (that was not cooled and made it though the sandwich adapter orifice) to then be filtered by the full flow. THIS sandwich adapter from GM, by the way is all steel, not cast or machined aluminum.

There is way more pressure on the sandwich orifice than there is on the Amsoil dual-remote. I imagined that was because they really 'wanted' more of the oil to go around and come back in cooled a bit.

My take is that if you route the oil from the bypass to some other spot,like the oil fill cap,that you would have to drill an additional hole or completely remove the factory poppet valve and let more of the oil go though that opening, since it is for filtration and not cooling. I would believe that enough oil pressure would be available to a BP filter with that poppet removed AND going to a 0 pressure point that it would work well. When you use the sandwich as a point of return you are actually returning to a near same differential pressure point and I might see problems with that.

So, this is my view: Motor fires up. Oil pump moves oil through he oil filter housing and creates oil pressure of 45 lbs pushing oil right on through the FF filter and into the engine galleys, which can only take so much flow so flow is slowed but pressure is maintained. Let's keep the constant 45 PSI as the norm on this illustration. Now, you add a bypass with that little poppet knocked out. Engine starts, and builds up to 45 PSI. Oil moves through the full flow and into the galleys same as before, but oil can only move so fast (volume) though the engine and filter subsequently. Excess "volume" head from the sandwich to the bypass unit. It is now at 45 PSI Enough to make it effective. The oil moves through the filter media, but because of the finer and tighter filter media it only flows through at a much reduced rate. BECAUSE there is 0 pressure in the center of the filter (because you plumed to a oil cap, oil pan, etc) oil will move slowly to the least resistance, the center of the filter and finally out to the line to the oil filler cap.

With the poppet valve in place and if you route the oil from the BP filter BACK to the same sandwich, your oil is meeting resistance, as most of the oil is already backed up from the lower flow of going though the engine(adequate pressure) and competes with the oil that has already gone through the bypass poppet and on to the full flow outside -> inside, and then into the engine as demand.

My assessment, and I could be all wet

is to remove the poppet valve and route to a 0 pressure return, NOT back to the sandwich that already has pressure.

Long winded huh?

 

[Gary Allan]

I don't know if I would go that way. You don't know how much that bypass filter will flow. It has a flow design of 1-3 gallons ..even the minimum spec you cannot withstand, IMO. That is, I don't know how restrictive that restrictor is.

You already have the ideal setup with the biasing valve. That slight pressure (keep in mind that you're probably dealing with .375 square inches) will just give a push to the bypass filter. You can still use your sandwich intact and put another full flow there too. The poppet will virtually never open.

OTOH, you could pick up another threaded insert and run two of them. They may be able to handle most of the flow.

I couldn't follow all of what you had going there ..but then again ..when I'm long winded ..no one can follow me either

 

[Nebraskan]

The bypass filter I'm looking to put on is the Baldwin B50 or Hastings number LF 117, a spin on with 5/8" x 18 nominal 3 absolute 7µ filter.

Pop out the small pressure regulator on the GM sandwich (poppet valve)
Take oil from the sandwich at 45 psi (illustration only) to the single bypass filter.
Return the oil to the pan or oil cap at 0 psi pressure differential.

Removing the poppet will allow better oil flow "down" to the full flow underneath.

If I plumb to a location other than the return at the sandwich the full flow filter underneath will have to have the flow of oil though the poppet as this is the only oil going to the galleys.

 

[Gary Allan]

Hmm ..okay ..but you're not @ 0 PSID ..you're at 45PSID as far as the bypass filter is concerned. I realize that it has a built in restrictor ..but I don't have any experience with it and don't know what the flow is going to be. If it's 1gpm at any point with your (probably) 5-6gpm system, then it's going to be too much.

For example, Amsoil puts a 0.030 restrictor in the mount (BP-80-A) ..I've measured it with pin gauges (0.029 measured). I cannot see them (Baldwin) putting such a fine restrictor in a throw away filter.

Try it, by all means, but keep in mind that you're diverting flow from the engine. This filter may flow a whole lot more then you think. That is, take a good hard look at the restrictor. It should be visible through the outlet hole. If you can even see it ..it's too big, imo. If not when cold ..then surely when hot.

The restrictor in the Amsoil unit is barely dectectable to the naked eye. It blended in so well with the rotational machining on the plug, I really thought that the threaded part was installed (instead of just machined on the casting)..and that someone had left a production installation tool in there by mistake. It looked like a solid brass plug (it has a hex for putting a wrench on it) in there as a soft internal pipe wrench. Then a "dot" caught my eye and I got a closer look.


I could be way off on this and the Baldwin filter may be that restrictive. I'm just reluctant to have you go ahead and ruin a perfectly good OEM sandwich adapter and find out that you cannot reverse what you've done.

As far as the poppet itself being restrictive. You don't know that yet. Remember, as long as you don't add too much "back pressure" ..there's no such thing as a flow altering restriction. Quickbeam DID encounter a reduced pressure after putting on the Permacool (which appeared to have a smaller relief valve) ..and he had to drill a small hole to restore pressure. He must have higher volume pumps or is using a higher visc oil that causes the oil pump relief valve to open ..reducing flow. If he didn't reach the pump's threshold ...he would not see any reduced pressure downstream ..since no flow would be reduced. Same flow ..same pressure as far as the engine is concerned.

We'll get there, pal. Don't you worry none.

 

[Nebraskan]

As far as restriction on the BP filter, that is pretty simple. Just use a smaller oil line on the "OUT" bound oil to the filler cap (or other) that only allows so many GPM flow regardless of pressure. At the winery we have 1 1/2 and 2 hp centrifugal pumps for moving wine. It comes in on a 2" hose from the tank and goes out on a 1 1/2" hose to another tank. If you do either or both of the following 2 things you reduce flow:
At some point on the 1 1/2" line you have a butterfly valve that is partially closed. OR, you have a much smaller line, say 1" or even down to 3/4". It will shoot out a huge stream, but the effective flow in GPM is reduced.

The centrifugal pump, in our case, is designed so that there is no "deadhead" pressure for damage to the pump like a positive displacement pump. If I close the valve right at the pump's 1 1/2" outlet (always a butterfly valve there), then the pump impeller just spins around and no wine moves. Only when I move the the valve open does flow begin toward where I am going.

Should be similar to the BP filter. If I install either a ball valve near the sandwich or one before the return oil gets back to the engine, then I have reduced FLOW through the filter. You really want to control flow through a filter if you can because you will be so much more efficient in the filtering with it controlled. We found in research at the winery, that on our depth filters (same as oil filters) we can actually blow particles though the filter by rushing the job. IE if you flow too much through any depth filter, you reduce the materials ability to trap, AND hold particles. Increase flow too much and you have problems with larger acceptable parts heading out of the filter and downstream.


I worked at Boeing in Seattle as a machinist for a while. I could always drill and tap a 1/8" hole in there and leave it open. If it didn't work I can put in a set screw and the hole is closed.

A small ball valve on the line going to the BP filter, close to the sandwich affair, is not really a bad idea anyway. I could always shut off the flow there when changing FF filter and not have all that oil come out of the BP filter back into the sandwich.

Best control for the filters efficiency, though, is a small ball valve in the line near the oil fill cap. You can shut off flow there and only allow a small trickle to go into the engine, and that in effect makes only a small controlled trickle go through the BP Filter. It probably will flow extremely little at low rpm, and only a few GPM at upper rpm speeds, which you want. The lions share will go through the full flow with this idea, with enough going through the BP filter for slow steady filtering at normal highway speeds.

 

[Gary Allan]

That works. I'd probably use a needle metering valve since they tend to not be as subject to vibration and will usually hold a setting.

 

[Nebraskan]

Baldwin B50, and Hasting LF117 (one and the same, different lettering) have a flow control orifice built in each filter. The engineer at Baldwin told me it has a 0.5 GPM flow. He also said the opening was 0.050" , so I really don't need a needle metering valve, since it flows so little. BTW, the flow going though it means that it is WAAYY more efficient that way, and has a nominal rating of around 3µ . Going to a oil pan or to the oil fill cap would be preferable with the sandwich, as with such low flow it would not be competing with the back pressure under the sandwich adapter. He asked me what kind of wine goes with that sandwich?? Hmmm

He also told me a lot of other things, that I'm not able to readily discuss here

Vern

 

[Gary Allan]

BTW, the flow going though it means that it is WAAYY more efficient that way, and has a nominal rating of around 3µ . Going to a oil pan or to the oil fill cap would be preferable with the sandwich, as with such low flow it would not be competing with the back pressure under the sandwich adapter.


These two statements are in conflict with each other. If the "competing with the back pressure" means a slower flow, then it's preferred just like the first statement asserts.

A 0.050 hole will have over twice the flow of a 0.030 opening.

In any event, I'd still do a warm "drop test" into a beaker at idle just to see what that filter passes. I had one of those nylon gauge tubes blow off and emptied a 6 quart sump in a block and a half. Otherwise ....enjoy it

 

[md_lucky_13]

This filter MOVES the oil.

I was slighly concerned maybe it was pulling too much oil.

My oil analysis have been a-ok, so I havn't worried about it. I might still look for a way to reduce it some more though.

 

[Nebraskan]

I had to re-read that statement, Gary. So, this is a better question then: If I drill a hole in the sandwich so I now have the hole and the poppet valve to allow flow of oil underneath (area of the "IN" on the FF Filter), and the oil can only go though the FF filter so fast, and is backed up a bit causing 'pressure'. Then, isn't the oil coming back to the sandwich also encountering pressure as well? Wouldn't this reduce the oil flow a bit too much?
I try to picture this in my mind. All I'm coming up with is crayon drawings!

This picture kind of explains what I am thinking. Never mind the lack of talent in drawing, I gave it all to my daughters!

Since the oil comes out of the pump and into the bypass sandwich in this drawing at 47 PSI (illustration only), and it basically meets resistance in the oil galley, etc of the engine and "backs up" a bit, thereby causing pressure. At 47 PSI the oil moves from the sandwich to the BP Filter, and though that little orifice. If it were returning to a near zero pressure point, then the orifice would block the oil flow and only allow so much to go through. But, if the oil return from the BP Filter has to go back to the underneath side of the sandwich to where the oil is getting ready to go through the filter, isn't it meeting a pretty much 'dead head' right there?

I saw the other bypass sandwich listed on ebay, and it does not have the poppet and in fact, it is pretty much open. They list the 4 external ports for things like oil pressure gage, oil temperature gage, etc. But, there is NO return on this (ebay) unit, all 4 ports are there for sending unit, OR you could send oil to a bypass and THEN send the oil on to 'someplace' else.

The GM sandwich adapter (PN 24500 032 stamped on the sandwich) was in use for an oil cooler, with minimal loss of flow back to the oil filter under it. That poppet valve just gave it a "BIAS" to move oil through the heat exchanger, in favor of just moving on down and through the FF filter. Drill enough or large enough hole in this sandwich and I doubt that any oil would actually circulate back to the FF filter. What physical reason would oil have to move all the way through the pipes and cooler, and then back to the lower part of the sandwich IF there was already adequate flow at the FF filter already.

 

[Gary Allan]

Okay ..the 47psi @ 3 o'clock is incorrect. So is the 47psi at about 7-8 o'clock. You'll have a pressure differential across the poppet valve ..probably not much. That differential will also be seen across the bypass filter circuit. The flow division will be different based on the visc at the moment ..but the pressure differential will be the same.


The only thing that will be in question is whether the differential will be a pressure drop or a pressure elevation. For example, let's say you see 47psi normally ..and that your pressure sender is down stream from the filter (most are). The 2PSID (or whatever the poppet's breaking pressure is) will mean that there will now be 49lbs applied to the bypass and the poppet.

The exception to this is if the oil pump's relief valve opens due to high viscosity/high volume (combo). If the relief opens then the poppet will still open and will still have a 2PSID, but the flow can be reduced and you can see lower then 47psi at the downstream sender.

 

[Nebraskan]

I failed to mention that there is a 1/8" hole opposte side of the popppet valve. Do you see it in the picture? It's not drilled and taped there yet, but, it, along with the oil poppet would allow oil to go from top side to bottom side of the sandwich adapter.

Yes, the oil pressure sender is downstream from the filter.

Now, for the sake of engineering, lets say I punch out that poppet and drill it out to 1/4" and also the other hole on the other side to 1/4". There would be little reason in that scenario for oil to make it out of the sandwich to some remote location, especially if there was any resistance in the line. It would simply be like electricity and find the path of least resistance.

 

[Gary Allan]

Okay ..I'm getting lost here. If you punch the hole in the sandwich ..then the oil would have no reason to take the long route to the remote ..at least when warm.

That is, I totally agree with your take on it. That's why you should not do it. You don't know that you need to do that at all.

 

[Nebraskan]

LOL

ah.. Gary, it's been so much fun hasn't it?? Nothing has happened yet. BTW here a 2 better looking pictures of the GM unit (all steel I might add).

AND

I keep them close to my bed.. NOW you know I am really bitten by the BITOG bug huh??

You have the patience of Job, I'll give you credit. No, the sandwich would NOT work as both a effluent and influent if I were to vastly open up the ports that way and use the above diagram. HOWEVER, if I were to bring the return oil to some other locale, like the oil filler cap, then the restrictor built in the filter (Baldwin B50), would slow the flow, and let what little 0.5 GPM dribble into the filler cap. That would equate to 10 gallons of filtered oil in a period of 20 minutes, though.

The FF filter under the sandwich would get plenty of oil for going to the engine. Just one line would then come off the sandwich TO the BP Filter, and from filter TO the non pressurized return spot.

 

[Nebraskan]

Ok... this is a revised drawing with what I had talked about just above.

It's just a diagram!!

If this were realistic drawing, your push rods would be sc*r*a*ping dirt driving down the road!

I didn't know SCRAAPPING (like scuffing) was a bad word!!

I think Gary want's his 20 dollars back!

Vern

 

[Nebraskan]

Now, the reason I bring all this feldercarb up is that I personally think putting a sandwich bypass adapter WITH the poppet valve on an engine and just relying on the poppet valve for oil for the full flow is a gross mistake. I think the sandwich was made for oil coolers with 0 flow restriction, or little resistance, and would easily flow oil from point A (A being above the poppet valve) to point B (B being below the poppet valve). Once the system on an oil cooler was charged and up and going, you shut down the motor.. then a few hours or many hours later you start back up. There is alreay oil in the cooler lines both in/out and at the point "B" and combine with new fresh flow, the oil flows quickly through the FF filter and into the oil galleys.

Big difference between an oil cooler with very little resistance and a bypass filter with so much resistance of oil trying to be forced through so much and so tight of a media.

Hot oil on a cooler would probably instantly ALL go through the cooler line and into the full flow and then to the engine, and the poppet would stay closed. Only when you had high RPM and the flow became greater would that poppet valve start to open. Using it for redirecting oil into a tight filter I have a hard time buying into.

 

[Gary Allan]

(more visions of Old Ben Kenobi as he heard the name "Obiwan")

Feldercarb ..hmmm..now that's something I haven't heard in a long time. I have, however, replaced it with "FRAK!".

Here's where you've got a couple of things just a bit off. Oil coolers, and the lines that run to them don't have zero resistance. There's formulas and whatnot that can show you pressure alterations ..but they're beyond my abilty to manipulate (many gaps in my finer education). Just the mass of oil that's sitting there will not want to move on a dime. The poppet is designed to limit that pressure differental across the cooler to a certain level. If the temp is -25 ..I don't care what oil you have in there, it's not going to want to move. The poppet will be supplying the oil flow for the engine for a good bit. Just like your B50 is going to flow more after warm up ..the cooler will move more and more oil at whatever rate the poppet produces in differential pressure.

The cooler, assuming that it does its job, will automatically have increased resistance just due to the viscosity change that occurs from entering and leaving. This doesn't even get into the effects of the tube length and whatnot.

I've got an aluminum sandwich from a mid-80's Crown Vic Police package oil cooler. Actually I have the whole package. The relief is a very ..very small port with a light spring. It's automatically going to divert flow based on viscosity. If your oil gets too hot, it's going to be easier to push through the cooler at that differential pressure. If it doesn't want to (it's too thick) ..it just squeezes through the poppet relief. Hopefully the package is matched enough that you have a decently high relief setting on your oil pump. That will alow the oil to just accellerate through the (apparently) small opening.

The resistance of the engine is very high. It makes up the majority of the pressure developed due to flow. Your filter, typically, amounts to next to nothing in pressure development. So does the poppet in most cases.