JHZR2
Staff member
Homes around here that g forced have an upstairs and downstairs handler and two separate condensers for AC.
Building a House- HVAC/Hot Water
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Geothermal is a good option. It is expensive up front for the installation but it will save you money everytime you use it.
Trane is an exellent brand. Find a dealer and have them show you some of their installations before you make a commitment.
Trane is an exellent brand. Find a dealer and have them show you some of their installations before you make a commitment.
Check out www.hvac-talk.com, the "Ask our pros - Residential" section of the forum. You'll get better advice over there.
jeff
jeff
If you have piped natural gas you'll have high speed internet. They only put it in the "gentrified" part of town.
IDK about even finding a buildable lot with gas on the street; that's usually in urban to suburban areas with 1/4 acre lots.
If you really want to get your freak on, check out a wood pellet furnace. You don't have to unload sacks of the stuff, either, you can get them delivered in a truck that shoots the things out under air pressure. "They" say it's like getting #2 fuel oil for $1.99. (There are probably some hidden maintenance costs to drive it up a little closer.)
IDK about even finding a buildable lot with gas on the street; that's usually in urban to suburban areas with 1/4 acre lots.
If you really want to get your freak on, check out a wood pellet furnace. You don't have to unload sacks of the stuff, either, you can get them delivered in a truck that shoots the things out under air pressure. "They" say it's like getting #2 fuel oil for $1.99. (There are probably some hidden maintenance costs to drive it up a little closer.)
Regarding forced air: the absolute most important aspect of a forced air system is the ducting. The equipment is almost irrelevant. The ducting must be appropriately sized and installed. There are industry standard analysis and design methods that should be followed, along with best practices for the installation. An imbalanced, too restrictive, and/or leaky duct system will render the house uncomfortable and kill whatever efficiency you think you'll be getting with high end equipment.
The second most important aspect is proper equipment sizing. "Bigger is better" is absolutely wrong in the case of HVAC. There are analysis methods for determining equipment sizing as well.
Last, make sure they have the system set up with a 4 or 5" pleated filter at the air handler. These are dramatically better than the typical 1" filters. They filter more effectively and are simultaneously less restrictive. They also last 6-12 months so are more forgiving of lax maintenance.
jeff
The second most important aspect is proper equipment sizing. "Bigger is better" is absolutely wrong in the case of HVAC. There are analysis methods for determining equipment sizing as well.
Last, make sure they have the system set up with a 4 or 5" pleated filter at the air handler. These are dramatically better than the typical 1" filters. They filter more effectively and are simultaneously less restrictive. They also last 6-12 months so are more forgiving of lax maintenance.
jeff
Originally Posted By: KD0AXS
Cost wise it seems to be about the same, you're just paying in a lump sum to have the tank filled rather than a monthly bill.
Nope, not even close to the same around here. Propane costs a small fortune. People that have it hate it, but there is no option in some areas...
Cost wise it seems to be about the same, you're just paying in a lump sum to have the tank filled rather than a monthly bill.
Nope, not even close to the same around here. Propane costs a small fortune. People that have it hate it, but there is no option in some areas...
We've had Lennox HVAC systems for more than 30 years, and it's never left us without heat or AC.
When we built our current home I looked at geothermal systems, but at that time the cost payback wasn't there (in our case). They've probably changed in the 18 years since, so now it may well be a viable option.
Our current system is a 98+ % efficient furnace (propane) and the house is zoned depending upon it's use. The system works extremely well.
I wouldn't want to be without a system that doesn't circulate the air in the home-I've heard stories on here about people who can't maintain reasonable humidity levels in their basements and have to resort to dehumidifiers (and even then they don't work well). Our system keeps our basement at an even temperature and humidity level all year round.
In our area we lock in and pre-purchase propane in the summer when the prices are lowest. For our ~4,000 square foot home our propane costs run about $1,000/year and the home is kept comfortable.
Central air (in my opinion) is a must. I couldn't stand having a window unit hanging off the side of the house, and sitting around listening to the roar of the AC on a summer’s day. As I said above, it also keeps the humidity levels optimized all year, not only keeping the house comfortable, but protecting the wood floors and furniture from damage.
3 years ago I replaced our gas fired hot water system with a GE Geospring hybrid system. I have yet to use it in anything other than eco mode, even when we have company. We noticed a decrease in our propane consumption when it was installed, but didn’t see much of a bump in the electrical costs. For us it’s been very cost effective. With rebates and tax credits the cost was only marginally more than a replacement gas water heater (and much less than an on-demand system). We estimated that the energy savings would pay for it at about the 4 year mark, so we're close to it being paid for with savings.
When we built our current home I looked at geothermal systems, but at that time the cost payback wasn't there (in our case). They've probably changed in the 18 years since, so now it may well be a viable option.
Our current system is a 98+ % efficient furnace (propane) and the house is zoned depending upon it's use. The system works extremely well.
I wouldn't want to be without a system that doesn't circulate the air in the home-I've heard stories on here about people who can't maintain reasonable humidity levels in their basements and have to resort to dehumidifiers (and even then they don't work well). Our system keeps our basement at an even temperature and humidity level all year round.
In our area we lock in and pre-purchase propane in the summer when the prices are lowest. For our ~4,000 square foot home our propane costs run about $1,000/year and the home is kept comfortable.
Central air (in my opinion) is a must. I couldn't stand having a window unit hanging off the side of the house, and sitting around listening to the roar of the AC on a summer’s day. As I said above, it also keeps the humidity levels optimized all year, not only keeping the house comfortable, but protecting the wood floors and furniture from damage.
3 years ago I replaced our gas fired hot water system with a GE Geospring hybrid system. I have yet to use it in anything other than eco mode, even when we have company. We noticed a decrease in our propane consumption when it was installed, but didn’t see much of a bump in the electrical costs. For us it’s been very cost effective. With rebates and tax credits the cost was only marginally more than a replacement gas water heater (and much less than an on-demand system). We estimated that the energy savings would pay for it at about the 4 year mark, so we're close to it being paid for with savings.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
I wouldn't want to be without a system that doesn't circulate the air in the home-I've heard stories on here about people who can't maintain reasonable humidity levels in their basements and have to resort to dehumidifiers (and even then they don't work well). Our system keeps our basement at an even temperature and humidity level all year round.
Im sure youre mentioning my situation, which is highly irrelevant. My 80 year old home does not have forced air, nor a finished basement, and no way Im going to pay to duct conditioned air into an unfinished space that I use for storage and my shop. Let's not forget that there is a cost to pipe that conditioned air down there too.
My basement is a dry 35% presently, and it never goes above 50% RH. A little bit of air circulation down there and my expenses with dehumidification have gone to pennies a month, same or less than you spewing conditioned air in the space.
No way Id have forced air spewing dust and dirt through ducting that is always disgusting no matter how "clean" it is, and setting me up for the potential of exchanging combistion byproducts into the forced air system poisoning my family. No thanks.
Hot water and the thermal mass of real radiators works wonderfully.
I wouldn't want to be without a system that doesn't circulate the air in the home-I've heard stories on here about people who can't maintain reasonable humidity levels in their basements and have to resort to dehumidifiers (and even then they don't work well). Our system keeps our basement at an even temperature and humidity level all year round.
Im sure youre mentioning my situation, which is highly irrelevant. My 80 year old home does not have forced air, nor a finished basement, and no way Im going to pay to duct conditioned air into an unfinished space that I use for storage and my shop. Let's not forget that there is a cost to pipe that conditioned air down there too.
My basement is a dry 35% presently, and it never goes above 50% RH. A little bit of air circulation down there and my expenses with dehumidification have gone to pennies a month, same or less than you spewing conditioned air in the space.
No way Id have forced air spewing dust and dirt through ducting that is always disgusting no matter how "clean" it is, and setting me up for the potential of exchanging combistion byproducts into the forced air system poisoning my family. No thanks.
Hot water and the thermal mass of real radiators works wonderfully.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
You want natural gas, period. A buddy of mine has oil and although his house is significantly smaller (and newer) than mine, our house costs far less to heat due to having gas.
My parents, same thing. They have gas at their one house, their other had oil. The cost of operation between the two, even though they are very similar in size, was significant.
Exactly.
Keep looking until you find a lot with NG service or very close by and have a line run.
Oil heat was fine at a $1.xx a gallon, now its $3.50+ a gal and extremely vulnerable to domestic/global political and monetary price shocks to the upside at any time. Same goes for propane, which is manufactured from oil.
Moreover, if I were building a house in upstate NY I'd want 2x6 exterior wall construction for the added insulation R-value. Also, you can run a stand-by generator on NG, (another must have in my opinion).
You want natural gas, period. A buddy of mine has oil and although his house is significantly smaller (and newer) than mine, our house costs far less to heat due to having gas.
My parents, same thing. They have gas at their one house, their other had oil. The cost of operation between the two, even though they are very similar in size, was significant.
Exactly.
Keep looking until you find a lot with NG service or very close by and have a line run.
Oil heat was fine at a $1.xx a gallon, now its $3.50+ a gal and extremely vulnerable to domestic/global political and monetary price shocks to the upside at any time. Same goes for propane, which is manufactured from oil.
Moreover, if I were building a house in upstate NY I'd want 2x6 exterior wall construction for the added insulation R-value. Also, you can run a stand-by generator on NG, (another must have in my opinion).
Originally Posted By: greenjp
Regarding forced air: the absolute most important aspect of a forced air system is the ducting. The equipment is almost irrelevant. The ducting must be appropriately sized and installed. There are industry standard analysis and design methods that should be followed, along with best practices for the installation. An imbalanced, too restrictive, and/or leaky duct system will render the house uncomfortable and kill whatever efficiency you think you'll be getting with high end equipment.
The second most important aspect is proper equipment sizing. "Bigger is better" is absolutely wrong in the case of HVAC. There are analysis methods for determining equipment sizing as well.
Last, make sure they have the system set up with a 4 or 5" pleated filter at the air handler. These are dramatically better than the typical 1" filters. They filter more effectively and are simultaneously less restrictive. They also last 6-12 months so are more forgiving of lax maintenance.
jeff
+1 on all three.
I designed and installed a new duct system in 2011. It was nearly 30yrs old. Experienced hot/cold rooms, poor air circulation, etc. It didn't leak much, but was far too restrictive on both the supply & return sides.
I did a Man J (load calculation) to see how much cooling/heating each room needed, then went to Man D to size the ductwork. I had to add additional return air sqr. in. to properly flow the blower. I used metal wye's (no ductboard triangles) and dampers on each branch to balance everything out.
Made a world of difference. Turns out I was paying to run a 3 ton system but only getting about 1.8 tons of cooling out of it. My bills weren't excessively high, but I didn't have really cold air blowing out of the grilles.
You want this done right, from the beginning. You don't have serious HEAT like I do in Tx. where most of the time, I'm spending money on cooling. Where you are though you have serious COLD so it'll have to be designed accordingly.
As for HW, I heat mine with solar that uses an electric backup as there's no gas lines in my neighborhood.
Regarding forced air: the absolute most important aspect of a forced air system is the ducting. The equipment is almost irrelevant. The ducting must be appropriately sized and installed. There are industry standard analysis and design methods that should be followed, along with best practices for the installation. An imbalanced, too restrictive, and/or leaky duct system will render the house uncomfortable and kill whatever efficiency you think you'll be getting with high end equipment.
The second most important aspect is proper equipment sizing. "Bigger is better" is absolutely wrong in the case of HVAC. There are analysis methods for determining equipment sizing as well.
Last, make sure they have the system set up with a 4 or 5" pleated filter at the air handler. These are dramatically better than the typical 1" filters. They filter more effectively and are simultaneously less restrictive. They also last 6-12 months so are more forgiving of lax maintenance.
jeff
+1 on all three.
I designed and installed a new duct system in 2011. It was nearly 30yrs old. Experienced hot/cold rooms, poor air circulation, etc. It didn't leak much, but was far too restrictive on both the supply & return sides.
I did a Man J (load calculation) to see how much cooling/heating each room needed, then went to Man D to size the ductwork. I had to add additional return air sqr. in. to properly flow the blower. I used metal wye's (no ductboard triangles) and dampers on each branch to balance everything out.
Made a world of difference. Turns out I was paying to run a 3 ton system but only getting about 1.8 tons of cooling out of it. My bills weren't excessively high, but I didn't have really cold air blowing out of the grilles.
You want this done right, from the beginning. You don't have serious HEAT like I do in Tx. where most of the time, I'm spending money on cooling. Where you are though you have serious COLD so it'll have to be designed accordingly.
As for HW, I heat mine with solar that uses an electric backup as there's no gas lines in my neighborhood.
Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone
Same goes for propane, which is manufactured from oil.
70% of US propane is made from natural gas.
http://www.coenergy.net/propane-information
Same goes for propane, which is manufactured from oil.
70% of US propane is made from natural gas.
http://www.coenergy.net/propane-information
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Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
We've had Lennox HVAC systems for more than 30 years, and it's never left us without heat or AC.
I have the Janitrol compressor unit that my house came with in 1986.
Janitrol! In North Central Texas.
It's probably a 6.0 SEER....I could save quite a bit by upgrading it, but it just won't die!
I kinda' hope it sticks around for another year or three....just until I wipe out my motorcycle savings account on a motorcycle and then start building that account up again. Replace it during a nice mild part of winter when the HVAC guys are hungry for work.
We've had Lennox HVAC systems for more than 30 years, and it's never left us without heat or AC.
I have the Janitrol compressor unit that my house came with in 1986.
Janitrol! In North Central Texas.
It's probably a 6.0 SEER....I could save quite a bit by upgrading it, but it just won't die!
I kinda' hope it sticks around for another year or three....just until I wipe out my motorcycle savings account on a motorcycle and then start building that account up again. Replace it during a nice mild part of winter when the HVAC guys are hungry for work.
Nick,
I have a 'geothermal' system in my home & love it for the most part. My house is a 'rescue'. It was built around 1905-1910, has an unfinished basement & needed a complete overhaul. Granted we did a lot to insulate the walls & roof along with install new windows, but overall it is very efficient. We have two main levels & a finished attic. Counting the basement I am heating/cooling four levels.
I live in Iowa. We had a harsh winter a couple years ago & the highest bill we had then was $200 for electricity which covers the heating, lighting & hot water.
This past summer was hot & dry. My highest bill ever was had which was $225 for 'AC', hot water & lighting.
We use the excess heat from our system to pre-heat the water which is fed into the water heater. As a result water is going into the tank at around 95F - 110F.
My only gripes are that the air filter is a 25"x25"x1" which is hard to find in stores. You have to order them from home improvement stores. If you buy a year's supply shipping is free though. Secondly my utility company will not let us utilize other energy sources such as gas if we want to keep our all electric discounted rate.
If I had to do everything over again, I would definitely go geothermal again. I would however get a system that is rated above the estimated need by a ton or so & have an extra well or two dug.
If the heating can't keep up for whatever reason it utilizes a back-up electrical heating coil.
Our system requires a bunch of power though when the electrical heat is running in auxiliary mode. If I recall it takes 90 amps on start-up & levels off from there. The auxiliary heating mode usually only lasts for five minutes at a time.
You can check the recent average temperatures for Iowa during the past 30 days to get an idea of what my usage was like. My bill was $170 for everything.
We offset installation costs by using available tax credits at the time (30% no limit federal) and local utility rebates ($2,100). Our payoff for the cost difference is about 6.75 years from the initial date of service.
I have a 'geothermal' system in my home & love it for the most part. My house is a 'rescue'. It was built around 1905-1910, has an unfinished basement & needed a complete overhaul. Granted we did a lot to insulate the walls & roof along with install new windows, but overall it is very efficient. We have two main levels & a finished attic. Counting the basement I am heating/cooling four levels.
I live in Iowa. We had a harsh winter a couple years ago & the highest bill we had then was $200 for electricity which covers the heating, lighting & hot water.
This past summer was hot & dry. My highest bill ever was had which was $225 for 'AC', hot water & lighting.
We use the excess heat from our system to pre-heat the water which is fed into the water heater. As a result water is going into the tank at around 95F - 110F.
My only gripes are that the air filter is a 25"x25"x1" which is hard to find in stores. You have to order them from home improvement stores. If you buy a year's supply shipping is free though. Secondly my utility company will not let us utilize other energy sources such as gas if we want to keep our all electric discounted rate.
If I had to do everything over again, I would definitely go geothermal again. I would however get a system that is rated above the estimated need by a ton or so & have an extra well or two dug.
If the heating can't keep up for whatever reason it utilizes a back-up electrical heating coil.
Our system requires a bunch of power though when the electrical heat is running in auxiliary mode. If I recall it takes 90 amps on start-up & levels off from there. The auxiliary heating mode usually only lasts for five minutes at a time.
You can check the recent average temperatures for Iowa during the past 30 days to get an idea of what my usage was like. My bill was $170 for everything.
We offset installation costs by using available tax credits at the time (30% no limit federal) and local utility rebates ($2,100). Our payoff for the cost difference is about 6.75 years from the initial date of service.
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone
Same goes for propane, which is manufactured from oil.
70% of US propane is made from natural gas.
http://www.coenergy.net/propane-information
The other 30% is a by-product of petroleum processing. consequently, propane prices roughly track those of crude oil= expensive.
Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone
Same goes for propane, which is manufactured from oil.
70% of US propane is made from natural gas.
http://www.coenergy.net/propane-information
The other 30% is a by-product of petroleum processing. consequently, propane prices roughly track those of crude oil= expensive.
Forgot to mention; LP also has a lower BTU content per unit than fuel oil.
Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone
Same goes for propane, which is manufactured from oil.
70% of US propane is made from natural gas.
http://www.coenergy.net/propane-information
The other 30% is a by-product of petroleum processing. consequently, propane prices roughly track those of crude oil= expensive.
I am not seeing that propane to oil price relationship you describe. I graphed 2012 prices for fuels in Canada. Here.
http://s435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/Danno_001/Graph/?action=view¤t=Propane.jpg
Source for the prices. Here.
http://www.kentmarketingservices.com/dnn/PetroleumPriceData.aspx
I just did a calc and propane BTU are 65.8 % of oil while it is priced at 57.3% of oil for same BTUs.
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone
Same goes for propane, which is manufactured from oil.
70% of US propane is made from natural gas.
http://www.coenergy.net/propane-information
The other 30% is a by-product of petroleum processing. consequently, propane prices roughly track those of crude oil= expensive.
I am not seeing that propane to oil price relationship you describe. I graphed 2012 prices for fuels in Canada. Here.
http://s435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/Danno_001/Graph/?action=view¤t=Propane.jpg
Source for the prices. Here.
http://www.kentmarketingservices.com/dnn/PetroleumPriceData.aspx
I just did a calc and propane BTU are 65.8 % of oil while it is priced at 57.3% of oil for same BTUs.
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Natural gas is the best choice if available.
I have had oil since 2nd home and it requires expensive maintenance compared to propane/natural gas. I have an older system 42 year old Well McClain Boiler with 10 year old burner. I have issues with clogging filters etc due age of tank. When things go wrong it reminds me of being behind a stinky diesel truck.
That being all said no house explosions happen with oil heat nor fires really.
The superior heat IMHO is Boiler coupled to radiant flooring. Also energy wise you only can run up to 130F water so your boiler is set low so better energy usage. Lasty beyond comfortable. Radiators(old school or new) are wonderful but most new homes use the baseboard stuff. You need to run water closer to 180F.
Spend your money on a well designed heating system to save.
Hot air systems are miserable as there is no concept of zones unless you get another unit. That leads to more maintenance and potential breakdowns. It get hot so fast and the cold so fast. Also dust is maddening with them.
Geothermal is wonderful but its a large upfront cost.
Wood pellet is another choice but good for a home mechanic. They tend to breakdown and are pretty dirty.
I have had oil since 2nd home and it requires expensive maintenance compared to propane/natural gas. I have an older system 42 year old Well McClain Boiler with 10 year old burner. I have issues with clogging filters etc due age of tank. When things go wrong it reminds me of being behind a stinky diesel truck.
That being all said no house explosions happen with oil heat nor fires really.
The superior heat IMHO is Boiler coupled to radiant flooring. Also energy wise you only can run up to 130F water so your boiler is set low so better energy usage. Lasty beyond comfortable. Radiators(old school or new) are wonderful but most new homes use the baseboard stuff. You need to run water closer to 180F.
Spend your money on a well designed heating system to save.
Hot air systems are miserable as there is no concept of zones unless you get another unit. That leads to more maintenance and potential breakdowns. It get hot so fast and the cold so fast. Also dust is maddening with them.
Geothermal is wonderful but its a large upfront cost.
Wood pellet is another choice but good for a home mechanic. They tend to breakdown and are pretty dirty.
Gas fired hot water heat is the way to go. Forced hot air sucks. I have it and hate it, in fact I bought this house knowing it had forced hot air and knew I'd hate it. I was right, but we couldn't pass on the deal we got. Thank God for my wood stove which does about 80% of the heating of this house. My brother upgraded from forced hot air to gas fired hot water. He used the existing duct work to run most of the pipes for the hot water system. He says it was the smartest thing he did in that house. He did it himself and saved a fortune. I'd do it here if I didn't have the wood stove.
FWIW a good forced air system doesn't have the qualities a lot of folks are attributing to them. Getting hot too fast, too much cycling, high noise and air speeds, dust, etc are all symptoms of lousy designs & installs. Done correctly, a forced air system will be quiet, clean, and comfortable.
That said there are a lot of lousy systems out there so I can't blame people for lumping them all together.
jeff
That said there are a lot of lousy systems out there so I can't blame people for lumping them all together.
jeff
My first boss was a former engineer for Amana and told me some amazing stories about how proper central climate control systems were installed and tested in the old daze before competitive bidding killed quality.
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