Building a House- HVAC/Hot Water

[Nick R]

Well, my parents are probably going to be building a new house within the next year. they are planning on doing a modular house from Westchester Modular
(site)http://www.westchestermodular.com/

Currently, we do not yet have land, and are working on it. This for right now is purely informational and theoretical.


In this area, there are lots of areas that don't get Natural Gas. Basically, we want land, and it must be serviceable for Time Warner Cable or Verizon FiOS. But a lot of this area isn't serviceable for natural gas and people have oil heat.

Now if we can get Natural gas, we'll of course be going with a Gas Fired Furnace, and Gas fired Hot water heater. However, if we can't get natural gas, that's where it gets tricky for me. I would think we would end up with Oil Heat. Now, I don't know much about it. I know older style houses used a boiler. Do they make Forced Air Oil Fired Furnaces? Oil Fired hot water heaters? I've heard some people say that it's more cost effective to go with oil heat and an electric hot water heater.

I've never been a fan of electric hot water heaters. I figured if we go oil, we might as well go oil all the way. Any recommendations on this? We are also considering doing a Geothermal HVAC system. Our friend in Ohio did this when he built his house about 5-7 years ago.

If we go with a traditional Forced Air system, does anyone have recommendations for manufacturers for the A/C unit? I was always remembering Trane, and my grandfather has had a York unit for as long as I can remember. This is mostly new to us, so we are trying to gather information.

Any and all help and suggestions are appreciated!

Edit: I'm really trying to get them to try to go for the Geothermal option if it's feasible. Anyone have much experience with this either?

 

[OVERKILL]

You want natural gas, period. A buddy of mine has oil and although his house is significantly smaller (and newer) than mine, our house costs far less to heat due to having gas.

My parents, same thing. They have gas at their one house, their other had oil. The cost of operation between the two, even though they are very similar in size, was significant.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
You want natural gas, period. A buddy of mine has oil and although his house is significantly smaller (and newer) than mine, our house costs far less to heat due to having gas.

My parents, same thing. They have gas at their one house, their other had oil. The cost of operation between the two, even though they are very similar in size, was significant.


I figured as much. But again, what about Geothermal. The more I look into it, the more interesting it looks.
http://www.trane.com/residential/products/geothermal/t2gx-/-t1gx-geothermal

 

[earlyre]

House i grew up in had a Lennox "Fuel oil" Furnace(same BP truck that filled the tanks @ the school's bus garage stopped @ our house and filled the tank under the front porch), and an electric water heater (no gas service available) it worked fine. the basement would occasionally have a slight diesel aroma..

My own opinion, were i building, designing a system for MY house?
Nothing beats the comfort/versatility of steam heat. central boiler, with radiators in each room. they still make such systems, and the radiators aren't as massive, or clunky as they used to be.

 

[simple_gifts]

The way things are going, try to get natural gas.

Quote:

Do they make Forced Air Oil Fired Furnaces?


Yes; check Thermopride

 

[simple_gifts]

BTW; "geothermal" is the most widely misused term to represent heat extracted from the earth. You can see even manufacturers misuse it. It is simply a heat pump that extracts heat from well water rather than air. True "geothermal heat" does not require the use of a heat pump.

 

[KD0AXS]

How about propane? That's what we have since there's no natural gas service in our area. Basically uses the same appliances as natural gas, they just need to be set up for propane. Operation wise, you'd never know the difference. Our furnace, water heater, range, and gas fireplace all run on propane. Cost wise it seems to be about the same, you're just paying in a lump sum to have the tank filled rather than a monthly bill.

 

[JHZR2]

Forced air? Yuck.

Good for getting AC in, but I'm personally not a fan.

If you have line NG, great. Otherwise I'd look for LPG.

IMO what you want is a modulating/condensing boiler with indirect hot water tank. The losses are do much lower compared to a fired water heater, and the boiler will be 95% efficient. That minimizes total ownership cost.

IMO buy good components that are the highest quality and efficiency you can get. Even if it means forgoing something wasteful like time Warner or fios. The long term payback will be superior.

And only a 15 year mortgage.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: KD0AXS
How about propane? That's what we have since there's no natural gas service in our area. Basically uses the same appliances as natural gas, they just need to be set up for propane. Operation wise, you'd never know the difference. Our furnace, water heater, range, and gas fireplace all run on propane. Cost wise it seems to be about the same, you're just paying in a lump sum to have the tank filled rather than a monthly bill.


That's what I was thinking.

Many houses here outside of city limits have propane tanks outside. Some are buried. But a little trip down lesser traveled roads and you'll see a big white or silver propane tank in more yards than not. Obviously it doesn't get as cold here for as long but it should be able to do everything natural gas does. (not entirely sure about north of Amarillo on the high plains. I don't know if it's just the constant wind or if it's really that cold but it felt colder than Denver)

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Forced air? Yuck.

Good for getting AC in, but I'm personally not a fan.

If you have line NG, great. Otherwise I'd look for LPG.

IMO what you want is a modulating/condensing boiler with indirect hot water tank. The losses are do much lower compared to a fired water heater, and the boiler will be 95% efficient. That minimizes total ownership cost.

IMO buy good components that are the highest quality and efficiency you can get. Even if it means forgoing something wasteful like time Warner or fios. The long term payback will be superior.

And only a 15 year mortgage.


Well in our house, it's not even the TV we are worried about, so much as having access to internet faster than 5mb/s. You don't have to worry, my parents are of the "Spend a lot, get better quality" mindset. They don't believe in buying cheap stuff and replacing it. Within reason, of course. If we have to do LPG with a tank, I don't think we'd really have a problem with that. My dad get's a VA loan so whatever they do with that.

I hadn't even considered doing a Boiler. We've always had Forced Air, in every house we've ever lived in, never considered doing anything else. I was thinking these if we do a traditional system.
http://www.trane.com/residential/products/air-conditioners/xl16i-air-conditioners

http://www.trane.com/residential/products/gas-furnaces/xc95m-gas-furnaces

A lot of the appliances we are looking at are Bosch for the kitchen, with the exception of the Fridge (LG). Whirlpool for the HWH if NG/LPG

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Forced air? Yuck.

Good for getting AC in, but I'm personally not a fan.

If you have line NG, great. Otherwise I'd look for LPG.

IMO what you want is a modulating/condensing boiler with indirect hot water tank. The losses are do much lower compared to a fired water heater, and the boiler will be 95% efficient. That minimizes total ownership cost.

IMO buy good components that are the highest quality and efficiency you can get. Even if it means forgoing something wasteful like time Warner or fios. The long term payback will be superior.

And only a 15 year mortgage.


Well in our house, it's not even the TV we are worried about, so much as having access to internet faster than 5mb/s. You don't have to worry, my parents are of the "Spend a lot, get better quality" mindset. They don't believe in buying cheap stuff and replacing it. Within reason, of course. If we have to do LPG with a tank, I don't think we'd really have a problem with that. My dad get's a VA loan so whatever they do with that.

I hadn't even considered doing a Boiler. We've always had Forced Air, in every house we've ever lived in, never considered doing anything else. I was thinking these if we do a traditional system.
http://www.trane.com/residential/products/air-conditioners/xl16i-air-conditioners

http://www.trane.com/residential/products/gas-furnaces/xc95m-gas-furnaces

A lot of the appliances we are looking at are Bosch for the kitchen, with the exception of the Fridge (LG). Whirlpool for the HWH if NG/LPG


If you go boiler/radiator as someone above and I have mentioned, I would absolutely go Indirect WH, forget the whirlpool WH... very wasteful. We make our hot water as a zone off our mod/con boiler at 95%, which is practically as efficient as electric (resistor=100%-losses in insulation) but far cheaper.

Id then look at either a high velocity AC or the Mitsubishi Mr. Slim ductless AC for spaces that need it. The right ones can be 26 SEER, and serve as a heat pump down to around 15F, so you can use it as supplimental heat if you dont want to have to warm the whole home.

Ill be putting in the Mr. Slim units into my 80+ year old home this year or next. My inlaws have them and they have been rock solid and super efficient and quiet.

 

[bepperb]

I have natural gas forced air. I would have preferred natural gas in floor radiant. If you don't have the land yet, and therefore have some choice in the matter, find a way to get natural gas. In the life of the boiler, say 20-30 years, there is no telling what heating oil prices would be. They're three times natural gas now, easily. That's to say nothing of the added cost of running an electric dryer and water heater.

Propane is fine, it's still more expensive and more of a hassle to get refilled.

"geothermal" heat pump using a well is a neat idea. I've only known one person who had it and that was a wealthy person wasting money to feel like they were saving the earth. Maybe it's costs have or will come down as the systems become more common.

Who cares that a lot of people around you have heating oil, it's still an expensive solution I wouldn't want to lock myself into 30 years of dealing with.

 

[Nick R]

Hmmm. I would be wary of ductless when I think about how many units we'd need. I'd think Central HVAC would make more sense in our case.. I feel like if doing a brand new house, having to use two completely different systems, ductless for A/C and boiler/radiator for Heat and Hot water just would be more expensive and more complicated than a forced air HVAC system, wouldn't it?

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Nick R
Hmmm. I would be wary of ductless when I think about how many units we'd need. I'd think Central HVAC would make more sense in our case.. I feel like if doing a brand new house, having to use two completely different systems, ductless for A/C and boiler/radiator for Heat and Hot water just would be more expensive and more complicated than a forced air HVAC system, wouldn't it?


No idea to be honest. But as the other person said, IMO the comfort of the radiant heat just cant be beat.

And my year round heating cost for hot water is lower using the mod/con with indirect, so Im saving all year, not just during peak heating season.

More complex? Perhaps. I hate having forced air blowing on me, and the systems grow dust, dirt, mold, etc. I believe I am seeing a trend with forced air and bad allergies.

Many homes these days have an upstairs and downstairs air handler and two condensers anyway, so Im not sure that forced air lack of complexity is a valid point.

 

[bepperb]

Around here there are no heat pumps because they just don't work in the coldest part of winter. I'm not sure if that would be the case in Albany. It seems like a great solution if it would work. Here it's all forced air or radiant heat. The newer furnaces with variable or multi speed blowers and two level burners solve a lot of the noise and draft concerns on all but the coldest days. I'd agree allergies are a weakness of forced air, but then I think carpets are 100 times worse and lots of people have that.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: KD0AXS
How about propane? That's what we have since there's no natural gas service in our area. Basically uses the same appliances as natural gas, they just need to be set up for propane. Operation wise, you'd never know the difference. Our furnace, water heater, range, and gas fireplace all run on propane. Cost wise it seems to be about the same, you're just paying in a lump sum to have the tank filled rather than a monthly bill.


Ditto for me; instead of having it piped in you have the propane tank on your property. The heat, although forced air, works exceptionally well.


I've done some research on Geothermal:

Supplemented with the propane and an AC unit it would be awesome.


IMO for hot water, instant is the way to go. It's more expensive to install, but much cheaper to operate. In upstate NY, this will save on electric in the winter, as you are not keeping a large volume of water hot all the time.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Kuato
IMO for hot water, instant is the way to go. It's more expensive to install, but much cheaper to operate. In upstate NY, this will save on electric in the winter, as you are not keeping a large volume of water hot all the time.


I like that there are no tankage losses, but thats why we went indirect. On-demand gas WH is around 82% efficient, purely driven by combustion efficiency to get enough heat into the water fast enough to support the flowrate. My mod-con boiler is around 95% efficient, but there are tankage losses which are far lower than a fired gas heater (no chimney in the center), but still exist as compared to the tankless. They are on par with an electric heater which is 95%, losses purely through the tank insulation as on my indirect.

So end game is that conventional tank is roughly 60%, tankless is 82%, and my setup is 95%x95%=90.2%. That 8% increase is why we went indirect vs. tankless.

If the OP goes forced air, I agree, tankless is the way to go. And actually, doing some searches, it appears that there are now condensing tankless heaters, which would be what I would choose if I went tankless... The efficiency would be on par or higher than my system.

 

[Danno]

I am in the same situation looking at building on a lot with electricity but no nat gas. Propane with forced air and AC will be the backup heat/cool source, with wood stove, HE wood fireplace as the main heat source. The house will have R30 walls, R50 ceiling with a butter and batt insulation. 1" foam board on the outside to stop the wood stud heat bridging, 2" spray foam cold side of the wall, with 3 1/2" fiberglass batt warm side. 2x6" stud walls. Ceiling will have the same 2" spray foam topped will enough loose fiberglass to make it R50.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
Around here there are no heat pumps because they just don't work in the coldest part of winter. I'm not sure if that would be the case in Albany.


During the occasional "McFarland Signature" weather events that have us in single digits, my neighbor's heat pump ran continuously

It's supposed to be like -30° in Winnipeg tonight. I think the heat pump would just give up and die under those circumstances

 

[Nick R]

Ok another question. If forced air, and we want to do multi zone- is it possible to do it with a single air handler with variable speed blower? Or do you have to have two completely seperate systems?