BRP Tech. department confirmed, JASO MA2 not necessary in spyder RT 2023

[Baveux]

At last, BRP provided the comprehensive answer I sought, which was not easy to obtain.

Whether you comment or not, it's the same to me, but I thought it would be interesting for some to read what BRP had to say. Anyway, it's kind of strange that outside of BRP, everyone says that JASO MA 2 is the only way to go to protect our wet clutch.

I received this information from BRP Canada's technical department. Despite my varied inquiries, they consistently responded that JASO MA2 is not necessary.

Major surprise on my side...

All we need is (copied from their email):

email 1- For the oil, we suggest XPS 4T 5W40 synthetic oil. Should XPS be unavailable, any SAE 5W40 synthetic 4-stroke engine oil that meets or surpasses the following industry specifications will suffice: API Service Classification SJ, SL, SM, or SN. It is crucial to verify the API Service Label certification on the oil container, ensuring it includes at least one of the mentioned standards. (ALL this from BRP Rep)
This is verbatim from the owner's manual.

Here is my second attempt to see if they forgot to mention JASO in their first email

email 2- The JASO MA or JASO MA2 specification and/or designation is not necessary. The details provided in my previous email are sufficient. (again from BRP Rep)

Now from the 2023 repair manual:

Alternate if XPS products are not available, 5w40 synthetic blend oil minimum OR synthetic motorcycle oil meeting requirements for API service SN classification... OR ... JASO MA2

So motorcycle oil isn't mandatory or even necessary!!! Nor JASO!!

IMHO the word OR is what makes the difference...

Is this due to the fact that 5W40 oils lack friction modifiers and do not display Energy Conservation on the API label?

The mandatory JASO that everyone is discussing must originate from a specific source.

BUT FROM WHERE???

Would you run your spyder with QS euro 5w40 API SN or SP ?

Should I trust BRP ?

I plan to use SN JASO oil, but I'm curious about the expert consensus on this matter.

is it a surprise for you ?

 

[repairman54]

Valvoline motorcycle FS 10-40w in my '15 F3 with no issues. 26k miles on it currently. Proper oil changes and level being maintained is the primary concern IMO.
I'm a full synth. oil user in all of my motors. No overpriced BRP fluids in my Spyder or sleds.
Since they say JASO is not required it can't hurt to use it IMO. Minimal expensive to protect a wet clutch IMO.
The use of the word OR covers them if oil is needed on the road and not near a BRP dealer so oil level is maintained for warranty issues. I'm no fan of a 5w in summer heat in a motorcycle.

 

[Baveux]

It seems I was the only one unaware that SN alone is sufficient...

 

[KrisZ]

If you don't use JASO oil this will happen

 

[BusyLittleShop]

So motorcycle oil isn't mandatory or even necessary!!! Nor JASO!!

True...

Like it states in my profile... I'm using auto oil SN in my homolgated
race bike with a tall first gear good for 90mph... I literally
incinerate my clutch in WFO launches on the street or track... I don't
ride in moderation and yet no clutch slip issues due to oil... so
because of low cost and high availability I pick Mobil 1 5w30 SN...

 

[alarmguy]

...

All we need is (copied from their email):

email 1- For the oil, we suggest XPS 4T 5W40 synthetic oil. Should XPS be unavailable, any SAE 5W40 synthetic 4-stroke engine oil that meets or surpasses the following industry specifications will suffice: API Service Classification SJ, SL, SM, or SN. It is crucial to verify the API Service Label certification on the oil container, ensuring it includes at least one of the mentioned standards. (ALL this from BRP Rep)
This is verbatim from the owner's manual.

Here is my second attempt to see if they forgot to mention JASO in their first email


Would you run your spyder with QS euro 5w40 API SN or SP ?

...

No, not sure of the question. They state the oils that are acceptable and SP is not one of them. Which was going to lead me to the next question, where can you buy SN oil now?

 

[Baveux]

Alarmguy It is generally understood that new API specifications are designed to be backward compatible with older versions. Am I wrong to believe that ?

 

[Baveux]

If you don't use JASO oil this will happen

View attachment 233530

If it's just that, then!

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Is this due to the fact that 5W40 oils lack friction modifiers and do not display Energy Conservation on the API label?

Friction modifiers
Friction modifiers additives are only a small percent of the total oil
product and help the base oil do things that it otherwise could not...
Additives fall into several basic categories but Moly, Phosphors and
Zinc are the most often used friction modifiers... what ever small
percent of FM employed they will not defeat a wet clutch in good
working order...

According to XPS their product is 85 90% base oil and 5 15% trade secret friction modifiers additives...

Energy Conservation
Energy Conserving is not additive... its an API mileage test that this
"oil MAY result is an overall saving of fuel in the vehicle fleet as a
whole" there is nothing in the oil to defeat a wet clutch in good
working order...

 

[grampi]

The owner's manual gives you choices. I would use the lest expensive one. If that ends up being a JASO, that's what Id use...but it probably isn't...

 

[CourierDriver]

Are any of you blowing clutches or engines over this JASCO thing,,,probably not.....aaaaaaaaaaaaaamen

 

[ZeeOSix]

All we need is (copied from their email):

email 1- For the oil, we suggest XPS 4T 5W40 synthetic oil.

Does the XPS 4T 5W-40 say it meets JASO?

 

[alarmguy]

At last, BRP provided the comprehensive answer I sought, which was not easy to obtain.

Whether you comment or not, it's the same to me, but I thought it would be interesting for some to read what BRP had to say. Anyway, it's kind of strange that outside of BRP, everyone says that JASO MA 2 is the only way to go to protect our wet clutch.

I received this information from BRP Canada's technical department. Despite my varied inquiries, they consistently responded that JASO MA2 is not necessary.

Major surprise on my side...

All we need is (copied from their email):

email 1- For the oil, we suggest XPS 4T 5W40 synthetic oil. Should XPS be unavailable, any SAE 5W40 synthetic 4-stroke engine oil that meets or surpasses the following industry specifications will suffice: API Service Classification SJ, SL, SM, or SN. It is crucial to verify the API Service Label certification on the oil container, ensuring it includes at least one of the mentioned standards. (ALL this from BRP Rep)
This is verbatim from the owner's manual.

Here is my second attempt to see if they forgot to mention JASO in their first email

email 2- The JASO MA or JASO MA2 specification and/or designation is not necessary. The details provided in my previous email are sufficient. (again from BRP Rep)

Now from the 2023 repair manual:

Alternate if XPS products are not available, 5w40 synthetic blend oil minimum OR synthetic motorcycle oil meeting requirements for API service SN classification... OR ... JASO MA2

So motorcycle oil isn't mandatory or even necessary!!! Nor JASO!!

IMHO the word OR is what makes the difference...

Is this due to the fact that 5W40 oils lack friction modifiers and do not display Energy Conservation on the API label?

The mandatory JASO that everyone is discussing must originate from a specific source.

BUT FROM WHERE???

Would you run your spyder with QS euro 5w40 API SN or SP ?

Should I trust BRP ?

I plan to use SN JASO oil, but I'm curious about the expert consensus on this matter.

is it a surprise for you ?

Not sure of the concern. Jaso rated oil not needed, you can use either.
I’m surprised you didn’t ask about SP since you took the effort as far as Jaso vs SN which the manual says “or” for those two but no mention of SP

Is SP backwards compatible? Yes it’s backwards compatible with automobile engines which the API rating is for not special use vehicles though in your case maybe it is.
I do agree since SN is mentioned that SP would be fine I just think that it would have been almost a more valid question I guess

 

[Jimiii]

Alarmguy It is generally understood that new API specifications are designed to be backward compatible with older versions. Am I wrong to believe that ?

No you are correct, and I’ve been running CAR oil for 500,000 miles in shared sump bikes. He Jaso rating is both unnecessary and urban legend that has been repeated so many times it seems real. Presently running Mobil 1 fs 0W40 SP IN MY 2018 GoldWing. 30,000 miles (and I ride it aggressively), with great results

 

[ZeeOSix]

Now from the 2023 repair manual:

Manuals are usually written way before the model comes out, so could be why SP is not in the manual if it was hitting the streets after the manual was written. What's the 2024 manual say?

 

[Bonz]

No you are correct, and I’ve been running CAR oil for 500,000 miles in shared sump bikes. He Jaso rating is both unnecessary and urban legend that has been repeated so many times it seems real. Presently running Mobil 1 fs 0W40 SP IN MY 2018 GoldWing. 30,000 miles (and I ride it aggressively), with great results

I don't disagree. However, to my knowledge an Xw40 doesn't have to abide by any friction reducing quality standards. Whether it's on the JASO list or not, it will be a fine choice.

With that said, in those 500,000 miles, have you run any CAR oil in 5W30 or 10W30, or mostly CAR oil in 0W40, 5W40, 15W40, etc?

Main thing for me, I was running automotive oils that didn't have friction modifier designation. What I found was M1 10w40 4T and M1 20w50 V Twin stay in grade for 5000 mile OCI's in a much higher revving/higher horsepower (145 hp/87 ft/lbs) engine. Granted 87 ft/lbs isn't the 100 ft/lbs of a Gold Wing, but with the low revs, the opportunity for shearing comes about half as often over an OCI I would suspect.

I think your oil is a great choice, and I wouldn't change a thing if you're happy with it.

 

[Jimiii]

I don't disagree. However, to my knowledge an Xw40 doesn't have to abide by any friction reducing quality standards. Whether it's on the JASO list or not, it will be a fine choice.

With that said, in those 500,000 miles, have you run any CAR oil in 5W30 or 10W30, or mostly CAR oil in 0W40, 5W40, 15W40, etc?

Main thing for me, I was running automotive oils that didn't have friction modifier designation. What I found was M1 10w40 4T and M1 20w50 V Twin stay in grade for 5000 mile OCI's in a much higher revving/higher horsepower (145 hp/87 ft/lbs) engine. Granted 87 ft/lbs isn't the 100 ft/lbs of a Gold Wing, but with the low revs, the opportunity for shearing comes about half as often over an OCI I would suspect.

I think your oil is a great choice, and I wouldn't change a thing if you're happy with it.

No I have not run any lighter weight oils in any of my bikes. Mostly because everything prior to my new ( generation 6 Wing), has called for 10W40. I ran Mobil 1 turbo diesel 5W40 for 100,000 miles in my generation 5 wing as Honda specified 40 and because it started “thicker”, it stayed “closer” to a 40. I have run 100% synthetic ATF in the primary ( where the clutch is), in my Harley Ultra Limited without any clutch slippage (expected as an automatic transmission has wet clutches in them). That ATF is about a straight 5 weight and has high lubrication qualities as it has to lube many high stress / pressure parts in a modern automotive transmission.
I disagree with your belief that a higher reviving higher H. P. Engine have more opportunity to shear the oil as I believe the main culprit is the transmission. vii’s aren’t designed to be squeezed between transmission gears and get broken quickly when subjected to that. My opinion anyway.
I have seen your past posts and really appreciate your posting so many different oils in the same bike. Agree Mobil 4T seems a solid choice for shared sump bike calling for a 40 wt

 

[Bonz]

Saw a recall on the 2018 and up 'Wings for the crankshaft position sensor/pulsar rotor breaking off the crank. FWIW if you hadn't seen it yet.

 

[tc1446]

XPS 4T 5W-40

Pulled up pics online and backside of bottle says it "Meets SN, Jaso MA/M2".