Bring back asylums - interesting perspectives

[OVERKILL]

Steward Brand, who was involved in the California government during the period where policy regarding institutionalization for mental care was turned on its ear, has recently done a 180 on the policy he supported, now recognizing that it was in error.



The graph:

And the thread he quotes:



But we need look no further than beyond our front doors, discarding the rose coloured glasses if so equipped, to see that the abandonment of inpatient mental health care, combined with substance abuse, has led to the devastation of our city centres and a decline in quality of life for those impacted. Slowly killing themselves with drugs, turning their brains into tapioca, where no chance of rehabilitation becomes possible. This slow motion suicide by compassion is preferable to the firm hand of institutionalization.

This is part of the West's "suicidal empathy" (credit: Gad Saad), where we are so obsessed with virtue signaling and an oppressed/oppressor dichotomy that we reimage villains as saints and victims as villains because they possess the tools to defend themselves. We feed our downtrodden and destitute to a system of perennial tolerance and victimhood, excusing crimes and handing out free drugs because it makes us feel better about ourselves, creating a cottage industry of homelessness, rather than giving them what they need, which is isolated treatment and care away from their vices, with proper medication to stem the voices, cease the delusions and degauss the shivering screen of reality.

As somebody who watched this happen in real time; As controlled demolition took the institution away, now close to 400 homeless roam our streets, suffering perpetual mental health crisis, high out of their minds of substances, wandering into traffic, dying on the church steps, assaulting the elderly, crapping on the sidewalk, and this is the "life" we are giving them with "clean needles" and overflowing shelters? Where they steal and beat the hell out of each other, slipping back and forth between some post-apocalyptic reality and drug-induced delusion. That's not living, and it's sure as hell not more humane, no matter what we tell ourselves.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Years ago I was reading an opinion piece which suggested that OTC medication was the demise of these hospitals as they were becoming cost prohibitive and having patients take their meds and participate in society was a better outcome. The problem of course is when the patient refuses to take their meds.

 

[Pablo]

Institutions are absolutely necessary. Build and fund them!

 

[Danno]

There are reasons ICE beat EVs in the free market over 100 years ago.
There are reasons asylums were put in place.
And then there are the <schools> in Canada .....

 

[Cujet]

As a young man, I knew someone who was in an out of such places. Not rehab type places, but a place for those who need a bit more than minor maintenance. I visited regularly. That person now denies any issues. And I'm 100% sure takes no meds.

I may come across as mean, or uncaring because I call such folks 'broken humans'. From a technical perspective, that's how I see it. The vast majority of us function within normal parameters. Some do not.

 

[OVERKILL]

Years ago I was reading an opinion piece which suggested that OTC medication was the demise of these hospitals as they were becoming cost prohibitive and having patients take their meds and participate in society was a better outcome. The problem of course is when the patient refuses to take their meds.

That was the theory: That we could shutdown the institutions and just have their families look after them and medicate them. But this of course didn't work, because your average Jane and Joe parent aren't equipped to deal with this stuff and, as you note, the patient often doesn't want to be medicated.

What should have been an orderly transition to an expansion of outpatient care, where appropriate, instead was hijacked by oppressor/oppressed ideology that bootstrapped an anti-institutionalization movement which led to almost the complete eradication of inpatient mental health facilities, which resulted in a massive uptick in crime. This has been supercharged by the recent drug crisis and justice reforms where they are no longer being held, or held accountable, and neither are the people letting them out or those who got us into this mess.

"The dildo of consequences rarely arrives lubed."

 

[JohnnyG]

But the cost to the public is the same.

 

[OVERKILL]

But the cost to the public is the same.

I think the cost with asylums may actually be less, as lots of people, with proper after-treatment, can be re-integrated into society and become tax paying citizens, whereas, if they become drug-addled zombies they eventually end up in a care home (unless they die on the street) because they are no longer able to function.

Also, this perpetual catch and release game ties up police resources, as does responding to overdoses, and mental health crises tie up police/paramedics/fire, all of which could be responding to other important calls, for the people that are funding them. If a man dies of a heart attack because all the paramedics are out resurrecting addicts for the 30th time that week, that's a failing of the system to look after those who are funding it.

I think if we look at the resource footprint of:
Asylums

vs:

Police/fire/paramedic/hospital/court/shelter/safe injection/needle proliferation/"rehab"/infrastructure damage/property damage

for the same people, asylums end up being the less expensive option.

 

[JohnnyG]

I think the cost with asylums may actually be less, as lots of people, with proper after-treatment, can be re-integrated into society and become tax paying citizens, whereas, if they become drug-addled zombies they eventually end up in a care home (unless they die on the street) because they are no longer able to function.

Also, this perpetual catch and release game ties up police resources, as does responding to overdoses, and mental health crises tie up police/paramedics/fire, all of which could be responding to other important calls, for the people that are funding them. If a man dies of a heart attack because all the paramedics are out resurrecting addicts for the 30th time that week, that's a failing of the system to look after those who are funding it.

I think if we look at the resource footprint of:
Asylums

vs:

Police/fire/paramedic/hospital/court/shelter/safe injection/needle proliferation/"rehab"/infrastructure damage/property damage

for the same people, asylums end up being the less expensive option.

Don't they say the exact same thing about prisons?
Plus the staff , though thoroughly trained, do not need to be "nurse certified" to administer meds.
I'd think prisons, in that regard, may be cheaper.

 

[fdcg27]

We've seen prisons become the default mental asylums. The graph presented in the opening post demonstrates this.
Never mind that prisons are not really intended for this purpose nor are they set up for it nor are the staff well trained for it.
We don't incarcerate people for cancer or heart disease or stoke.
Why then do we incarcerate them for an illness of the mind which is just as real as an illness of the body?
Much of the chronic substance abuse that the seriously mentally ill engage in is no more than an effort at self medication in the absence of any available care.
Make no mistake, a seriously mentally ill person left untreated on the street is going to get involved in felony level trouble and will end up incarcerated.
Bringing back inpatient mental health facilities would be a better alternative along with forced commitment for those unable to manage their illness without serious intervention.

 

[JeffKeryk]

My wife's father earned a PhD in Clinical Psychology from UCLA; he worked at the famous Napa State Hospital. Starting in '67, CA closed and/or cut way back on the state mental institutions. Wifey said it was the only time she saw her father cry, "Where will they go? What will they do?"

How we treat the least of us...

 

[SOUNDMAN5000]

I knew a girl and was somewhat friends with her 20 years ago.
I no longer live in the same town and lost touch but she made local TV news recently..

I had heard through the grape vine she was seeing or hearing things and not acting right, her husband left her and her young adult kids won't have anything to do with her I understand.

She lost it, went an purchased a hand BB gun ( looks like a hand gun ) went driving around shooting the BB gun out her window and the police shot her in the arm.

As I understand she is out on bond with a court date soon.
as I understand she is on her own, I do see she post CRAZY stuff on social media and thinks the Government and people are tracking her, and trying to harm her.

She was a beautiful sweet girl when I knew her 20 years ago but I worry what will happen to her?
I was also told her family does not hear from her and she won't take her meds.
How do these people get help when even family turns a back to them?

Growing up in the 70's as a kid I never knew anyone personally but I think we all had friends of friends that knew of someone that was in an Institution for life.

 

[Dave Hess]

Pharmaceuticals and jails have replaced institutional behavioral health.

 

[OVERKILL]

Don't they say the exact same thing about prisons?
Plus the staff , though thoroughly trained, do not need to be "nurse certified" to administer meds.
I'd think prisons, in that regard, may be cheaper.

Prisons aren't for health problems. Once you have a criminal record, how well does that bode for reintegration and employment? There's a big difference between a place where Jeffrey Dahmer and terrorists belong and a guy whose family wasn't equipped to deal with his bi-polar disorder and he ended up on the streets, stealing change from cars to self-medicate with street drugs. These people should not be rubbing elbows under the same roof.

Prisons are not equipped, nor are their staff, to deal with the huge spectrum of mental health conditions, leading to minor infractions that ultimately culminate in conviction and incarceration, whereas there should be an early off-ramp to divert these people into asylums where they can be course-corrected and followed as they are reintegrated without the stigma of a criminal conviction on their record.

This is why, historically, these were completely separate institutions, and run very differently.

But make no mistake, they are also coming for prisons. "Defund the police" and the SJW hijacking of the justice system where we get violent repeat offenders perpetually paroled, for the folks behind this, every criminal is a victim of the state and the only solution is to infiltrate and overthrow the state from within, and that's exactly what we are seeing, and it starts at our educational institutions.

 

[OVERKILL]

We've seen prisons become the default mental asylums. The graph presented in the opening post demonstrates this.
Never mind that prisons are not really intended for this purpose nor are they set up for it nor are the staff well trained for it.
We don't incarcerate people for cancer or heart disease or stoke.
Why then do we incarcerate them for an illness of the mind which is just as real as an illness of the body?
Much of the chronic substance abuse that the seriously mentally ill engage in is no more than an effort at self medication in the absence of any available care.
Make no mistake, a seriously mentally ill person left untreated on the street is going to get involved in felony level trouble and will end up incarcerated.
Bringing back inpatient mental health facilities would be a better alternative along with forced commitment for those unable to manage their illness without serious intervention.

Exactly.

 

[JohnnyG]

Prisons aren't for health problems. Once you have a criminal record, how well does that bode for reintegration and employment? There's a big difference between a place where Jeffrey Dahmer and terrorists belong and a guy whose family wasn't equipped to deal with his bi-polar disorder and he ended up on the streets, stealing change from cars to self-medicate with street drugs. These people should not be rubbing elbows under the same roof.

Prisons are not equipped, nor are their staff, to deal with the huge spectrum of mental health conditions, leading to minor infractions that ultimately culminate in conviction and incarceration, whereas there should be an early off-ramp to divert these people into asylums where they can be course-corrected and followed as they are reintegrated without the stigma of a criminal conviction on their record.

This is why, historically, these were completely separate institutions, and run very differently.

But make no mistake, they are also coming for prisons. "Defund the police" and the SJW hijacking of the justice system where we get violent repeat offenders perpetually paroled, for the folks behind this, every criminal is a victim of the state and the only solution is to infiltrate and overthrow the state from within, and that's exactly what we are seeing, and it starts at our educational institutions.

Do you not think that some "mental" issues would result in convictions that send an offender to prison?

But in the end, I agree, mental institutions served a real need and should be brought back.
My MIL was a prime example. Fortunately, she did receive "help" many years ago.

The question is, as always, "who is going to pay".

 

[jkasch]

Prisons aren't for health problems. Once you have a criminal record, how well does that bode for reintegration and employment? There's a big difference between a place where Jeffrey Dahmer and terrorists belong and a guy whose family wasn't equipped to deal with his bi-polar disorder and he ended up on the streets, stealing change from cars to self-medicate with street drugs. These people should not be rubbing elbows under the same roof.

Prisons are not equipped, nor are their staff, to deal with the huge spectrum of mental health conditions, leading to minor infractions that ultimately culminate in conviction and incarceration, whereas there should be an early off-ramp to divert these people into asylums where they can be course-corrected and followed as they are reintegrated without the stigma of a criminal conviction on their record.

This is why, historically, these were completely separate institutions, and run very differently.

But make no mistake, they are also coming for prisons. "Defund the police" and the SJW hijacking of the justice system where we get violent repeat offenders perpetually paroled, for the folks behind this, every criminal is a victim of the state and the only solution is to infiltrate and overthrow the state from within, and that's exactly what we are seeing, and it starts at our educational institutions.

Well said, and obvious to anyone with common sense and paying attention.

 

[fdcg27]

Don't they say the exact same thing about prisons?
Plus the staff , though thoroughly trained, do not need to be "nurse certified" to administer meds.
I'd think prisons, in that regard, may be cheaper.

If you do the math on the budget of any given prison with the number of inmates it holds, I think you'll find that prison incarceration is anything but cheap.
Also, seriously mentally ill inmates require an outsized amount of resources to manage and are therefore disproportionately costly to hold.

 

[Danno]

Do you not think that some "mental" issues would result in convictions that send an offender to prison?

But in the end, I agree, mental institutions served a real need and should be brought back.
My MIL was a prime example. Fortunately, she did receive "help" many years ago.

The question is, as always, "who is going to pay".

Famous, pay me now or pay me later ...
The state needs to fund it, no other way. Which is the taxpayer.

 

[OVERKILL]

Do you not think that some "mental" issues would result in convictions that send an offender to prison?

They can, but in the past, the judge typically had the option of sending the person to an asylum or to prison, now that first option doesn't exist. There are of course cases where a conviction is still appropriate, but I have extensive personal knowledge, due to my interaction with the police and with other people who operate surveillance systems locally that the police come to, that many of these people are just perpetually in and out of jail with hundreds of convictions and this is a failing of the system being able to provide them what they need, which is not a jail cell and some meds for a month but an extended stay in a proper mental health facility where they can be treated, not just medicated, and gently re-integrated, followed by a specialized healthcare worker who understands their condition and can monitor and guide them.

But in the end, I agree, mental institutions served a real need and should be brought back.
My MIL was a prime example. Fortunately, she did receive "help" many years ago.

The question is, as always, "who is going to pay".

And that's exactly it. As we've discussed, it's likely no more expensive in the big scheme of things, and may actually be cheaper, but there would be a considerable upfront setup cost, to bring back the facilities, train the employees...etc. This isn't something that can be done overnight and would need widespread support to reintroduce and I'm not sure we are there yet, I think things may have to continue getting worse for that to be an accepted solution unfortunately