Brand Ranks particle count and efficiency "normalized" to ISO 4548-12

[CharlieBauer]

Looks like Endurance and all its “clones”..Amsoil … RP… ( and Ultra to a great degree) still fair well in your analysis.
What are the odds of ALL in that group being non leakers?

The data in the table would suggest they are all non leakers.

But in my opening post I wrote: "These efficiency numbers may still be out by several percentage points since there is nothing as good as following the ISO procedure to the letter"

In any case, you were going to use it even if it is 90% efficient since you believe that a leaking high efficiency filter still filters enough. And you actually have a point that in the 5-20 micron range, it may still be doing better than other filters. But the problem is that at all micron sizes above that, up until the size of any gap, it is worse than almost any filter.

So you'd have to be comfortable that an x% bypass at higher micron sizes isn't bad for your engine.

 

[ZeeOSix]

So you'd have to be comfortable that an x% bypass at higher micron sizes isn't bad for your engine.

A leak gap would also make it less efficient at 20u and below ... and there's way more particles in the oil at those particle sizes. Pretty much any filter can catch most of the particles above 35-40u. Using a high efficiency leaker is like using a lower efficiency non-leaker. Might as well just use a lower efficiency non-leaker and save some cash, lol.

WHY YOU WANT HIGHER EFFICIENCY FILTRATION

 

[Fair enough]

The data in the table would suggest they are all non leakers.

But in my opening post I wrote: "These efficiency numbers may still be out by several percentage points since there is nothing as good as following the ISO procedure to the letter"

In any case, you were going to use it even if it is 90% efficient since you believe that a leaking high efficiency filter still filters enough. And you actually have a point that in the 5-20 micron range, it may still be doing better than other filters. But the problem is that at all micron sizes above that, up until the size of any gap, it is worse than almost any filter.

So you'd have to be comfortable that an x% bypass at higher micron sizes isn't bad for your engine.

I still don’t know where all these spoonfuls of streaming dirt in the oil is coming from. And I still don’t know how a bypass low micron filter, where 90% of the oil passes unfiltered, 10% filtered, results in analytically clean oil. There isn’t a lot of activity in the bypass forum except most are wanting to take the soot out of their diesels it seems.
If one goes to a putting green and throws one or two golf balls in the air, it is pretty certain neither will go in the hole. Not every time for certain. But throw two bucket fulls of golf balls in the air, probably every time one goes in the hole.
So what is the concentration of harmful particles in the oil stream going to the filter?

 

[Ronn]

The data in the table would suggest they are all non leakers.

The fact of the matter is that NO Endurance nor any of its “ILK” (Amsoil..RP..Supertech..)made post 2023…Including Ultra…have passed the flashlight leak test. NONE. Granted, not many of these test have been performed, but when you consider that the same spring plate bypass flaw appears to be in ALL of them, it’s not much of a leap in reasoning to assume at least some of those tested did in fact have the flaw.

 

[Ronn]

.
So what is the concentration of harmful particles in the oil stream going to the filter?

The important thing to note is that the same test was performed all filters? So you have a valid comparison.

 

[ZeeOSix]

And I still don’t know how a bypass low micron filter, where 90% of the oil passes unfiltered, 10% filtered, results in analytically clean oil.

As mentioned before about this, the high efficiency bypass filter cleans up what the full-flow filter in the system doesn't catch. So the bypass filter "slowly" cleans up the sump to an over-all cleaner level than the sump would be without the addition of a high efficiency bypass filter in the system.

 

[Glenda W.]

The data in the table would suggest they are all non leakers.

But in my opening post I wrote: "These efficiency numbers may still be out by several percentage points since there is nothing as good as following the ISO procedure to the letter"

In any case, you were going to use it even if it is 90% efficient since you believe that a leaking high efficiency filter still filters enough. And you actually have a point that in the 5-20 micron range, it may still be doing better than other filters. But the problem is that at all micron sizes above that, up until the size of any gap, it is worse than almost any filter.

So you'd have to be comfortable that an x% bypass at higher micron sizes isn't bad for your engine.

Agree. Non leakers. 99% efficiency would require a perfect seal.

 

[Ronn]

Agree. Non leakers. 99% efficiency would require a perfect seal.

Consider this.
What are the ODDS that ALL four (Endurance ..Amsoil..RP….Ultra…) tested with identical characteristics…(with slight exception in Ultra filter media) ….clones if you will…had no bypass leaks with this metal on metal bypass? Given the fact none of these four (made post 2023) have passed a flashlight leak test …NONE.
I should include the Walmart Supertech which failed leak test, but it wasn’t tested by BR.

 

[Glenda W.]

Consider this.
What are the ODDS that ALL four (Endurance ..Amsoil..RP….Ultra…) tested with identical characteristics…(with slight exception in Ultra filter media) ….clones if you will…had no bypass leaks with this metal on metal bypass? Given the fact none of these four (made post 2023) have passed a leak test …NONE.

Did BR show build dates?

Pretty good chance all filters were pre 2023 if the tests were done in 2023. I’m just starting to see 2024 filters locally.

To achieve 99% efficiency would require a perfect seal or plenty of filters would advertise it. Math proves non leakers. TG and PH were leakers.

 

[CharlieBauer]

Math proves non leakers. TG and PH were leakers.

Well I used the word "suggests" rather than "proves".

And that was because this is an adjustment and estimate based on the best known information I can gather about the test methods and then you have to consider that Brand Reports, while following several parts of the ISO test method, had a different method of taking particle counts.

And if we are talking probabilities, then the chances are that any additional information that is not currently available about how exactly the test was performed, would move the efficiency numbers downwards.

So the numbers are not a definitive statement on whether the high efficiency filters were not leakers.

The people here who say they won't rely on the Brand Reports data have a point. In many professional settings, you would dismiss all their results as unreliable based on the Boss figures alone, without even asking about their methods.

But because test data on filters is so hard to come by, I think it is worth at least looking at the imperfect data to see if there is anything notable in there. Especially since I was able to see where they had and had not followed the ISO test and take that into account.

And I think maybe the most important part of the restated data is not which filter is 99%, but that there are quality issues with Fram & Wix and you can see it affects efficiency quite a bit when compared to the claims those manufacturers make.

 

[Ronn]

Did BR show build dates?

I already verified that build dates shown in videos were early 2023 on several (Endurance Amsoil) from the 2 videos on Endurance and Amsoil light tests, which were made in late 2023.

 

[Glenda W.]

I already verified that build dates shown in videos were early 2023 on several (Endurance Amsoil) from the 2 videos on Endurance and Amsoil light tests, which were made in late 2023.

Must have been around the time I activated the ignore feature….

 

[KevinMalone]

Agree. Non leakers. 99% efficiency would require a perfect seal.

As posted in the other thread, the Ultra was definitely a leaker as the Ruffles bypass spring is clearly visible. The Endurance appears to have a smooth spring, but it's not confirmed:

Post in thread 'Fram Endurance Flashlight Test in canister'

Sep 17, 2024

This might be old news, but the Fram Ultra tested by Brand Ranks looks like it had a ripply leaf spring:

And for reference, BR's particle count results:

I believe both the Endurance and Ultra are rated at 99%+ >20 microns, yet the Endurance particle counts were quite a bit lower. The implication is that the Ultra's bypass valve was leaking, but unfortunately the Endurance bypass valve was never in focus so it's hard to tell if it was smooth or ripply. I want to say it's smooth based on the consistent reflections, but cannot say for sure. Worth noting that the...

• KevinMalone

• 

However, the smooth springs can still have leaks:

Post in thread 'Fram Endurance Flashlight Test in canister'

Sep 17, 2024

I believe both the Endurance and Ultra are rated at 99%+ >20 microns, yet the Endurance particle counts were quite a bit lower. The implication is that the Ultra's bypass valve was leaking, but unfortunately the Endurance bypass valve was never in focus so it's hard to tell if it was smooth or ripply. I want to say it's smooth based on the consistent reflections, but cannot say for sure. Worth noting that the valve is blue, while the ripply valves are black.

Sorry, playing catch up here. Just realized that even the smooth leaf springs can also have gaps based on Whip City...

• KevinMalone

 

[KevinMalone]

So if @CharlieBauer's math is sound, and both leaking Ultra and sorta-leaking Endurance filters can achieve 99% efficiency, then the whole leaking bypass spring thing could be a nothingburger. However, I think it says something about Fram's declining build quality and quality control and still wouldn't use them.

 

[Fair enough]

As mentioned before about this, the high efficiency bypass filter cleans up what the full-flow filter in the system doesn't catch. So the bypass filter "slowly" cleans up the sump to an over-all cleaner level than the sump would be without the addition of a high efficiency bypass filter in the system.

I think the Hastings video explained the history of the concepts and why they made changes over the years.
Keeping the dual filter set up, how does the bypass element filter the soot and very fines when 90% of the oil goes around it? It does it fairly quick. According to the leaks matter particle theory it shouldn’t.
I’m definitely more in the leaks matter camp, even if only for the reason why buy a shoddily made product. It just seems like they should matter. It’s not how it was supposed to work, with leaks.

 

[CharlieBauer]

I think the Hastings video explained the history of the concepts and why they made changes over the years.
Keeping the dual filter set up, how does the bypass element filter the soot and very fines when 90% of the oil goes around it? It does it fairly quick. According to the leaks matter particle theory it shouldn’t.
I’m definitely more in the leaks matter camp, even if only for the reason why buy a shoddily made product. It just seems like they should matter. It’s not how it was supposed to work, with leaks.

Is "fairly quick" based on one of those demo displays?

 

[Glenda W.]

So if @CharlieBauer's math is sound, and both leaking Ultra and sorta-leaking Endurance filters can achieve 99% efficiency, then the whole leaking bypass spring thing could be a nothingburger. However, I think it says something about Fram's declining build quality and quality control and still wouldn't use them.

Totally agree on build quality.

I’d say the leaker was the TG. Also iso tested at 99% yet came up short on calculations. I still maintain to achieve 99% would require a non leaker.

 

[Ronn]

So if @CharlieBauer's math is sound, and both leaking Ultra and sorta-leaking Endurance filters can achieve 99% efficiency, then the whole leaking bypass spring thing could be a nothingburger.

Bingo

 

[KevinMalone]

I still maintain to achieve 99% would require a non leaker.

Very reasonable assumption. Hopefully we get the data to substantiate this one day

 

[Ronn]

Unfortunately there wasn’t a clear shot of Endurance bypass in BR test and Ultra wasn’t a close up, but the zoom in shown in last photo here does show ridges.
Below is from WC video confirming date on manufacture on Endurance and side by side comparison to Ultra at that time.
The other is a close up of Endurance bypass that failed light leak test.

Endurance on left Ultra on right. From WC comparison. No leak tests performed

Below is Endurance bypass that failed flashlight leak test

Photo below of Ultra from BR particle test