Bought a '07 Harlet Heritage Softail Classic !!
- Thread starter Turk
- Start date
- Status
Dan..this thread pertaines to the heat issue that is common in the twin cam engines, especially to the 96" motors..heat destroys the oil, even synthetic..your Havoline 20-50 wouldn't hold up very long in these conditions..this was a good thread that shows the difference between closed loop and open loop fuel management systems..Some people think that doing the stage one on their bikes fixes the problem, even with the PC3 and Sert you might still have a problem that effects the oil..So..that's where I'm comming from..did ya learn alot about EFI...don't sell your EVO...lol
Originally Posted By: SKUNKY
Y'all get a pot of coffee and read this....
http://www.hdforums.com/m_2836828/tm.htm
He is right about the IED plugs. They work. A buddy of mine put them on his 2007 roadking that was toasting his twins while riding in the summer and it cooled it right down. No muss no fuss. they cost him around $75 and just plugged into the wiring harness and then tie wrapped to the frame. It took him an hour to do the entire install. They apparently lower the o2 sensor voltage and fool the ecm into richening the fuel mixture a small percentage across the entire band. No ecm re-mapping needed just plug em on. You will notice how hot the TC96 runs this summer it has a longer stroke than the TC88 and really generates some heat.
Y'all get a pot of coffee and read this....
http://www.hdforums.com/m_2836828/tm.htm
He is right about the IED plugs. They work. A buddy of mine put them on his 2007 roadking that was toasting his twins while riding in the summer and it cooled it right down. No muss no fuss. they cost him around $75 and just plugged into the wiring harness and then tie wrapped to the frame. It took him an hour to do the entire install. They apparently lower the o2 sensor voltage and fool the ecm into richening the fuel mixture a small percentage across the entire band. No ecm re-mapping needed just plug em on. You will notice how hot the TC96 runs this summer it has a longer stroke than the TC88 and really generates some heat.
It would be better if you read the forum I posted...they'er 2 versions ...the ied for a AFR of 14.2 and a Xied for a AFR of 13.8...a lot of info is on the site so see which version fits your needs...
Last edited:
I got my bike pretty hot with the Havoline in it. Temp outside was 102 degrees, and the engine got so hot it was dieseling when I shut it off (tips of the spark plugs were hot enough to ignite the fuel, which must have meant they were nearly if not totally red)...
Here's the UOA that I did afterward:
Note also the 400 degree flash point of the Havoline--and compare that to the 385 degree flash point of the Amsoil in Pablo's linked UOA here...
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1070328#Post1070328
So the Havoline would hold up extremely well in very hot weather, I'm certain, as my UOA has shown.
But don't let me dissuade you guys from doing what you want to do...
Dan
Here's the UOA that I did afterward:
Note also the 400 degree flash point of the Havoline--and compare that to the 385 degree flash point of the Amsoil in Pablo's linked UOA here...
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1070328#Post1070328
So the Havoline would hold up extremely well in very hot weather, I'm certain, as my UOA has shown.
But don't let me dissuade you guys from doing what you want to do...
Dan
Talk about comparing apples to oranges. Flashpoint is most often about fuel in the oil, good to see Amsoil hold it's viscosity and Havoline not. But you wouldn't notice that I suppose.
I use synthetic oil to prevent the engine from getting hot enough to diesel in the first place..
In my experience and opinion there is really no comparison between Amsoil & Havoline 20w50. The dieseling experience should be proof enough. You can do major engine damage that won't show up in a UOA.
In my experience and opinion there is really no comparison between Amsoil & Havoline 20w50. The dieseling experience should be proof enough. You can do major engine damage that won't show up in a UOA.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Talk about comparing apples to oranges. Flashpoint is most often about fuel in the oil, good to see Amsoil hold it's viscosity and Havoline not. But you wouldn't notice that I suppose.
Pablo, you need to focus on the condition of the engine, and not so much the viscosity of the oil. What you're doing is equivalent to pulling a helmet off a brain dead motorcycle crash victim and marveling over the fact that it didn't get scratched up too bad. To use a cliche, the proof is in the pudding...
Talk about comparing apples to oranges. Flashpoint is most often about fuel in the oil, good to see Amsoil hold it's viscosity and Havoline not. But you wouldn't notice that I suppose.
Pablo, you need to focus on the condition of the engine, and not so much the viscosity of the oil. What you're doing is equivalent to pulling a helmet off a brain dead motorcycle crash victim and marveling over the fact that it didn't get scratched up too bad. To use a cliche, the proof is in the pudding...
Originally Posted By: PT1
I use synthetic oil to prevent the engine from getting hot enough to diesel in the first place..
In my experience and opinion there is really no comparison between Amsoil & Havoline 20w50. The dieseling experience should be proof enough. You can do major engine damage that won't show up in a UOA.
In your experience there's no comparison between Amsoil and Havoline? That infers that you have used both oils, and found Havoline unsatisfactory. Is this the case?
You're assuming that a synthetic oil would have kept the engine cooler. In the cases where a syn keeps the engine cooler (compared to dino), it is because the oil continues to flow, rather than getting sluggish and thickening (like the conventional oil did in that old Mobil 1 commercial where they baked it in a skillet on the stove).
But the Havoline flows just fine. And there are other group III oils which flow just fine, and cool just as well as any group IV or V oil.
Dan
I use synthetic oil to prevent the engine from getting hot enough to diesel in the first place..
In my experience and opinion there is really no comparison between Amsoil & Havoline 20w50. The dieseling experience should be proof enough. You can do major engine damage that won't show up in a UOA.
In your experience there's no comparison between Amsoil and Havoline? That infers that you have used both oils, and found Havoline unsatisfactory. Is this the case?
You're assuming that a synthetic oil would have kept the engine cooler. In the cases where a syn keeps the engine cooler (compared to dino), it is because the oil continues to flow, rather than getting sluggish and thickening (like the conventional oil did in that old Mobil 1 commercial where they baked it in a skillet on the stove).
But the Havoline flows just fine. And there are other group III oils which flow just fine, and cool just as well as any group IV or V oil.
Dan
FTM..my lord man..what time do you get up in the AM?? I see your post is at 0504...the Havoline is a great oil..I would be a little hesitent to use it in the 96/103 inch motors only cause they are running really lean from the factory and the oil sump is in the crankcase unlike the EVO motors that have a separate oil tank..plus there only holding 4 qts of oil and injecting the oil to the bottom of the pistons...HOT..HOT...HOT...plus, Pablo sells his oil really cheap!!
are you basing
Originally Posted By: tpitcher
better heat resistance
on flashpoint or what?
Originally Posted By: tpitcher
better heat resistance
on flashpoint or what?
Originally Posted By: SKUNKY
FTM..my lord man..what time do you get up in the AM?? I see your post is at 0504...the Havoline is a great oil..I would be a little hesitent to use it in the 96/103 inch motors only cause they are running really lean from the factory and the oil sump is in the crankcase unlike the EVO motors that have a separate oil tank..
That is total baloney. The TC96 Big Twin is a dry sump engine just like the TC88, Evo, Shovel, Pan, and Knuckle that preceded it. There is no "sump" in the crankcase. They all have external oil tanks. On the Dyna models the tank is down in between the engine case and the transmission case, which makes it appear like you're putting oil "in the engine," but it's still an external tank.
FTM..my lord man..what time do you get up in the AM?? I see your post is at 0504...the Havoline is a great oil..I would be a little hesitent to use it in the 96/103 inch motors only cause they are running really lean from the factory and the oil sump is in the crankcase unlike the EVO motors that have a separate oil tank..
That is total baloney. The TC96 Big Twin is a dry sump engine just like the TC88, Evo, Shovel, Pan, and Knuckle that preceded it. There is no "sump" in the crankcase. They all have external oil tanks. On the Dyna models the tank is down in between the engine case and the transmission case, which makes it appear like you're putting oil "in the engine," but it's still an external tank.
Originally Posted By: fuel tanker man
Originally Posted By: PT1
I use synthetic oil to prevent the engine from getting hot enough to diesel in the first place..
In my experience and opinion there is really no comparison between Amsoil & Havoline 20w50. The dieseling experience should be proof enough. You can do major engine damage that won't show up in a UOA.
In your experience there's no comparison between Amsoil and Havoline? That infers that you have used both oils, and found Havoline unsatisfactory. Is this the case?
You're assuming that a synthetic oil would have kept the engine cooler. In the cases where a syn keeps the engine cooler (compared to dino), it is because the oil continues to flow, rather than getting sluggish and thickening (like the conventional oil did in that old Mobil 1 commercial where they baked it in a skillet on the stove).
But the Havoline flows just fine. And there are other group III oils which flow just fine, and cool just as well as any group IV or V oil.
Dan
You are ignoring the fact that Amsoil is far superior to a dino when it comes to heat resistance. That is simply a fact that is undisputable. And is Havoline a GroupIII oil? I doubt it. Everyone knows Amsoil is a group IV. This has been beaten to death. Like I said, the dieseling in your engine is your engine telling you it is running too hot....soon it will tell you to get off an walk if it keeps running that hot. Trust me on this one.
Plus I am not assuming anything. Air cooled motorcycles do in fact run cooler with synthetic oil. There are many testimonials to prove that. It is undisputed.
Originally Posted By: PT1
I use synthetic oil to prevent the engine from getting hot enough to diesel in the first place..
In my experience and opinion there is really no comparison between Amsoil & Havoline 20w50. The dieseling experience should be proof enough. You can do major engine damage that won't show up in a UOA.
In your experience there's no comparison between Amsoil and Havoline? That infers that you have used both oils, and found Havoline unsatisfactory. Is this the case?
You're assuming that a synthetic oil would have kept the engine cooler. In the cases where a syn keeps the engine cooler (compared to dino), it is because the oil continues to flow, rather than getting sluggish and thickening (like the conventional oil did in that old Mobil 1 commercial where they baked it in a skillet on the stove).
But the Havoline flows just fine. And there are other group III oils which flow just fine, and cool just as well as any group IV or V oil.
Dan
You are ignoring the fact that Amsoil is far superior to a dino when it comes to heat resistance. That is simply a fact that is undisputable. And is Havoline a GroupIII oil? I doubt it. Everyone knows Amsoil is a group IV. This has been beaten to death. Like I said, the dieseling in your engine is your engine telling you it is running too hot....soon it will tell you to get off an walk if it keeps running that hot. Trust me on this one.
Last edited:
G-MAN The TC96 Big Twin is a dry sump engine just like the TC88 said:
Originally Posted By: fuel tanker man
Now, with the newest Amsoil motorcycle oil which I believe is a group III dino based oil, I'll bet you don't see those copper numbers so high. The group IV's and V's don't appear to be protecting the bearings as well as dino oils do.
Dan
This is laughable. Geez and all this time using that expensive synthetic oil I was really destroying my bearings...
Now, with the newest Amsoil motorcycle oil which I believe is a group III dino based oil, I'll bet you don't see those copper numbers so high. The group IV's and V's don't appear to be protecting the bearings as well as dino oils do.
Dan
This is laughable. Geez and all this time using that expensive synthetic oil I was really destroying my bearings...
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: PT1
Havoline is a group III oil. Read the archives here, and learn!
It is true that the 96 inch motors are running hotter. This is reported to be due to the lean mixture required to pass EPA standards, and of course the larger displacement.
But those 96 inch engines have been tested and re-tested by HD of course, and this even on their Citgo made 20W50 360 dino motor oil.
Let me ask you guys this, because I really don't know the answer: Has anyone ever heard of a dino oil baking into sludge and killing a Harley engine? Or is this just a hypothetical/theoretical concern?
Remember, these engines have been running great and lasting a long time on the old Sunoco and now Citgo made dino oils. There are a couple of 400,000+ mile bikes in the museum in Milwaukee which were ran on only 360 dino Harley oil... and they didn't ever need an overhaul.
Are we concerning ourselves too much with baseless, theoretical arguments, while true bikers are just out there riding and using whatever 20W50 is on sale?
I wonder...
Dan
It is true that the 96 inch motors are running hotter. This is reported to be due to the lean mixture required to pass EPA standards, and of course the larger displacement.
But those 96 inch engines have been tested and re-tested by HD of course, and this even on their Citgo made 20W50 360 dino motor oil.
Let me ask you guys this, because I really don't know the answer: Has anyone ever heard of a dino oil baking into sludge and killing a Harley engine? Or is this just a hypothetical/theoretical concern?
Remember, these engines have been running great and lasting a long time on the old Sunoco and now Citgo made dino oils. There are a couple of 400,000+ mile bikes in the museum in Milwaukee which were ran on only 360 dino Harley oil... and they didn't ever need an overhaul.
Are we concerning ourselves too much with baseless, theoretical arguments, while true bikers are just out there riding and using whatever 20W50 is on sale?
I wonder...
Dan
Well, I guess that answers my question--there actually are no members here with any verifiable knowledge of oil related failures in Harley Davidson engines. That's a good thing!
Perhaps the moral is "use what you wanna and be happy, even if you are on the Pablum."
(sorry, couldn't resist!)
Dan
Perhaps the moral is "use what you wanna and be happy, even if you are on the Pablum."
(sorry, couldn't resist!)
Dan
- Status
