Bosch WS vs. Hyundai/Kia OEM Filters?

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Actually, as a joint venture Mann&Hummel and Bosch purchased Purolator back in 2006. However as of March of last year M&H aquired sole ownership of Purolator, acquiring Bosch's portion ownership.

The approval of the change in ownership took place in March, 2013. Purolator filters LLC, a joint venture between Bosch and Mann+Hummel, was to be re-named to Mann+Hummel Purolator Filters LLC but that change, which required the anti-trust approval they got last spring, was to be implemented over several months. I have not seen anything on how Bosch will change product line-up or sourcing. At this point its USA made filters are still Purolator-based.

Not sure of the point of the basic repitition of my post information. Your post left the impression that Bosch was still an owner of Purolator which it no longer is. The announcement of the H&M Bosch buyout was late 2012 and as I said completed in March 2013(last year). As for the Bosch line up and/or US made filters still being made by Purolator, neither was disputed in this thread. The point is Bosch is no longer a Purolator Filter owner.

Quote:
I assume you're relying on this from 2012:

*New* Purolator Synthetic Filter *Pics*

No, I'm not relying on any post from 2012 comparing the PSL to the P1 and is irrelevant to the statement you made below.

You posted above and then reasserted to ZO6 that...
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
The Bosch DistancePlus and the Purolator Synthetic are the same.

As Z06 an I both posted, that is inaccurate. You should go back and re-read why. To different filters based not only on efficiency but media type and construction. Details by both ZO6 and myself previously accurately detailed above.

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
You lost me there.

You posted

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
I assume the reason for the lack of valve noise is that the Bosch/Purolator is less efficient than the Kia/Hyundai filter and the oil flows more easily through it when cold.

To which I posted with a link in the quote that you took out of context and did not include the link proving your assumption inaccurate. The Bosch W/S in more efficient than the H/K oem.

What was actually posted,
Originally Posted By: sayjac
As correctly noted according to the Bosch site the WS is rated 97.5%@20um which is the same as the Puro Classic. However, as posted and documented in this thread, the H/K OEM has an efficiency rating of 99.2%@50um. So based on the comparitive efficiencies of both filters, in this instance oil filter flow cannot be correlated or related to any engine noise. In fact based on the specs, the H/K oem is relatively inefficient.

Just in case you have difficulty locating and identifying the link.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3158282

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
To which I posted with a link in the quote that you took out of context and did not include the link proving your assumption inaccurate. The Bosch W/S in more efficient than the H/K oem.

I don't have quite the need to "win" that you do, so much of what you're writing is going past me.

Valve noise on startup in a sound engine is result of lack of oil flow, which as to oil can be remedied with a lower viscosity, and as to a filter a less restrictive flow. Assuming the bypass valves between two filters are set the same and more or less work the same, the only other difference can be restriction through the filter itself, which relates to porosity, efficiency, and like terms and concepts.

 

[Sayjac]

Not about winning, it's about posting inaccurate information as fact, and then having the accurate information posted as follow up.

You seemed to have no difficulty posting twice the BD+ was the same as the PSL, even when Z06 followed up with the correct Puro Synthetic(PSL) efficiency rating. And later more information was posted stating the construction differences between the BD+ and PSL. Can't be the same filters as was alledged with different efficiencies and different construction.

Seemed to have no difficulty stating your assumption that the OP was getting no noise because you thought the H/K oem is more efficient than the Bosch WS. The follow up showed that assumption not to be the case.

Thought the idea was to point out and post accurate information when available, not simply agree with the inaccurate information.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Valve noise on startup in a sound engine is result of lack of oil flow, which as to oil can be remedied with a lower viscosity, and as to a filter a less restrictive flow.


Usually "valve noise" at start-up is due to leaky hydraulic valve lifters. That usually only occurs if the anti-drain back valve (ADBV) is faulty. Once you get tuned in to how restrictive most filters are, you'll discover that they are all withing a +/- a few PSI in the delta-p department. Oil filters are generally only 1/15th of the total oiling system restrictiveness ... the engine itself (ie, bearings, etc) makes up the other 14/15th of restriction to flow. A positive displacement oil pump doesn't care about a few PSI of delta-p that the oil filter produces.

Here is a bench test that Purolator ran on one of their smaller PureOne oil filters. As you can see, even with 12 GPM of hot oil flow, the delta-p across the filter was only 5 PSI.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Usually "valve noise" at start-up is due to leaky hydraulic valve lifters.

In this instance the user noted with filter A there was noise and with filter B there was none.

Apparently, then, we can eliminate the lifters themselves else the noise would be present with filter A AND with filter B.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Apparently, then, we can eliminate the lifters themselves else the noise would be present with filter A AND with filter B.




No, I have this problem in my Jeep. I've found 2 or 3 filters that hold the oil so well they will prevent it. The rest (a lot) will not.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Not about winning, it's about posting inaccurate information as fact, and then having the accurate information posted as follow up.

Oh, you mean the stuff about the transfer of ownership of Purolator in 2006, which as I read it was completely accurate?

Quote:
Thought the idea was to point out and post accurate information when available, not simply agree with the inaccurate information.

A couple of points.

It seems that the gauge of the case steel of the Bosch filters is slightly heavier than a Purolator at the same price point.

Robert Bosch GmbH is the world's largest supplier of automotive components measured by 2011 revenues.

The company was founded by Robert Bosch in Stuttgart in 1886.

Robert Bosch was a German industrialist, engineer and inventor, founder of Robert Bosch GmbH.

Bosch was born 23 September, 1861, in Albeck, a village to the northeast of Ulm in southern Germany. He was the eleventh of twelve children. His parents came from a class of well-situated farmers from the region. His father, a freemason, was unusually well-educated for someone of his class, and placed special importance on a good education for his children.

From 1869 to 1876, Bosch attended the Realschule (secondary-technical school) in Ulm, and then took an apprenticeship as a precision mechanic.

After his school and practical education, Bosch spent a further seven years working at diverse companies in Germany, the United States (for Thomas Edison in New York), and the UK (for the German firm Siemens). On 15 November 1886, he opened his own 'Workshop for Precision Mechanics and Electrical Engineering' in Stuttgart. A year later, he made a decisive improvement to an unpatented magneto ignition device made by the engine manufacturer Deutz, providing his first business success. The purpose of the device was to generate an electric spark to ignite the air/fuel mixture in a stationary engine. In 1897, Bosch was the first to adapt a magneto to a vehicle engine. In doing so, he solved one of the greatest technical problems faced by the nascent automotive industry. The invention of the first commercially viable high-voltage spark plug as part of a magneto-based ignition system by Robert Bosch's engineer Gottlob Honold in 1902 greatly enhanced the development of the internal combustion engine.

Before the 19th century ended, Bosch expanded his operations beyond Germany. The company established a sales office in the UK in 1898, and other European countries soon after. The first sales office and the first factory in the U.S. were opened in 1906 and 1910 respectively. By 1913, the company had branch operations in America, Asia, Africa, and Australia, and was generating 88% of its sales outside Germany. In rapid succession in the years following the First World War, Bosch launched innovations for the motor vehicle, including diesel fuel injection in 1927. In the 1920s the global economic crisis caused Bosch to begin a rigorous program of modernization and diversification in his company. In only a few years' time, he succeeded in turning his company from a small automotive supplier into a multinational electronics group.

From the beginning, Bosch was greatly concerned about promoting occupational training. Prompted by his awareness of social responsibility, he was one of the first industrialists in Germany to introduce the eight-hour work day, followed by other social benefits for his associates. Robert Bosch did not wish to profit from the armaments contracts awarded to his company during WWI. Instead, he donated several million German marks to charitable causes. A hospital that he gave to the city of Stuttgart opened in 1940.

In the 1920s and 1930s, Robert Bosch was politically active. As a liberal businessman, he sat on a number of economic committees. He devoted a great deal of energy and money to the cause of bringing about reconciliation between Germany and France. He hoped this reconciliation would bring about lasting peace in Europe, and lead to the creation of a European economic area.

The Nazi (National Socialist) regime in Germany brought Bosch’s peacemaking efforts to an abrupt end. The company accepted armaments contracts, and employed forced laborers during the war.

Robert Bosch was keenly interested in agricultural issues, and owned a farm south of Munich. He was also a passionate hunter. When he died on 12 March 1942, he was survived by four children from two marriages. A son from his first marriage died in 1921 following a protracted illness.

In 1937, Robert Bosch had restructured his company as a private limited company (close corporation). He had established his last will and testament, in which he stipulated that the earnings of the company should be allocated to charitable causes. At the same time, his will sketched the outlines of the corporate constitution which was formulated by his successors in 1964 and is still valid today.

The company is privately owned and 92% of its share capital is held by Robert Bosch Stiftung GmbH, a charitable foundation.The majority of voting rights are held by Robert Bosch Industrietreuhand KG, the remaining shares are held by the Bosch family and by Robert Bosch GmbH. The Bosch logo represents a simple magneto armature and casing, one of the company's first products.

The MANN + HUMMEL Group is headquartered in Ludwigsburg within the metropolitan area of Stuttgart and is one of the three world leaders in development, production and distribution of liquid and air filter systems, intake systems and cabin filters. Additional products include cylinder head covers made of plastic with many integrated functions for the automotive industry, and filter elements for the maintenance and repair of motor vehicles. Although process engineering and industrial manufacturing sectors the product range includes industrial filters, membrane filters and equipment for water filtration about 90 percent of annual sales of around 2.62 billion euros accounted for by the activity in the automobile industry. The Company and its subsidiaries have more than 50 locations worldwide including nine in Germany. The owner of the Mann + Hummel Group are the families of the two founders, Adolf Mann and Dr. Erich Hummel who established “Filterwerk Mann+Hummel GmbH” (today Mann+Hummel GmbH) in Ludwigsburg, near Stuttgart in 1941.

Your turn.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Usually "valve noise" at start-up is due to leaky hydraulic valve lifters.

In this instance the user noted with filter A there was noise and with filter B there was none.

Apparently, then, we can eliminate the lifters themselves else the noise would be present with filter A AND with filter B.


Not true if filter B has an ADBV that works better than filter A. A leaking ADBV can cause start-up noise ... that's why it was invented in the first place - to stop start-up noise.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The whole detailed history of the Bosch company sure makes things clear here ...

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Not true if filter B has an ADBV that works better than filter A.

I was under the impression that the problem with noisy hydraulic valve lifters was leaky hydraulic valve lifters, not oil flow. In fact, someone just posted that.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Not true if filter B has an ADBV that works better than filter A.

I was under the impression that the problem with noisy hydraulic valve lifters was leaky hydraulic valve lifters, not oil flow. In fact, someone just posted that.


If the ADBV leaks and the lifters also leaks down due to the leaking ADBV, then the lifers can be noisy until they "pump back up". It might take a minute or two for a really bad lifter to pump back up and quiet down. Of course vehicles without hydraulic lifters don't suffer from this problem.

Like I said earlier, with a positive displacement oil pump there really isn't any lost oil flow to the engine parts unless the resistance to flow is so great that the oil pump pressure goes up to its relief pressure. In a start-up situation I have never seen oil pressure at 80+ PSI ... unless someone revs the engine pretty high like a complete lunatic when the oil is very cold and thick.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If the ADBV leaks and the lifters also leaks down due to the leaking ADBV, then the lifers can be noisy until they "pump back up".

The gentleman described a 2011 2.4 l four cylinder. For Kia and Hyundai that's the Theta-II Engine - 2.4L (2359cc). The oil filter is a spin-on attached vertically under the engine with the threads on top:

Theta II Oil and Filter Change

Change Oil and Filter

Doesn't that render the ADBV sealing superfluous?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If the ADBV leaks and the lifters also leaks down due to the leaking ADBV, then the lifers can be noisy until they "pump back up".

The gentleman described a 2011 2.4 l four cylinder. For Kia and Hyundai that's the Theta-II Engine - 2.4L (2359cc). The oil filter is a spin-on attached vertically under the engine with the threads on top:

Theta II Oil and Filter Change

Change Oil and Filter

Doesn't that render the ADBV sealing superfluous?


Not necessarily. There have been many discussions about how an ADBV can still prevent the oiling system from back draining even with a setup like that. Suggest you try the search function a bit and do some historical reading.

BTW - Hyundai and KIA engines knock because their oiling system is not "normal".

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Not about winning, it's about posting inaccurate information as fact, and then having the accurate information posted as follow up.

Oh, you mean the stuff about the transfer of ownership of Purolator in 2006, which as I read it was completely accurate

Which is as exactly as I posted it in response to your first post here where you stated....

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
The Bosch filters made in the US are made in the Purolator factory which Bosch purchased a few years back. Model for model each of the Bosch has a Purolator counterpart.

Which was inaccurate on two points. Bosch did not purchase Purolator "a few years back", which would have been 2010-11, only off by four years. It also failed to note the fact that Bosch is no longer currently a Puro owner. And as now shown multiple times, in addition to not being the same as the Purolator Synthetic as you incorrectly stated in the same post and later, the Bosch Distance Plus has no direct Purolator counterpart.

And unlike the relevant information correcting the inaccuracies posted, the inane Bosch cut paste does nothing but take up bandwidth.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
The Bosch filters made in the US are made in the Purolator factory which Bosch purchased a few years back. Model for model each of the Bosch has a Purolator counterpart.

Which was inaccurate on two points. Bosch did not purchase Purolator "a few years back", which would have been 2010-11, only off by four years.

Are you on drugs?
Quote:
It also failed to note the fact that Bosch is no longer currently a Puro owner.

I did correct the failure to relate Bosch's history.

This would be a good time for you to fill in the histories Mr. Adolf Mann and Dr. Erich Hummel, both of which I left out, or perhaps the geneology of one or both of the Mrs. Boschs. No point in having incomplete information.

Or can we just declare you the winner now and move on?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Let's not turn this into some crazy "history lesson" thread.

All though, I would like to see links to support said claims being made about the Bosch/Purolator merge.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
The Bosch filters made in the US are made in the Purolator factory which Bosch purchased a few years back. Model for model each of the Bosch has a Purolator counterpart.

Which was inaccurate on two points. Bosch did not purchase Purolator "a few years back", which would have been 2010-11, only off by four years.

Are you on drugs?

No, you? It's just good to know that when you say a few years you mean something else. Same as Bosch Dist. Plus same as Purolator Synthetic and Bosch having a direct counterpart in every Purolator.

Much as Capri Racer and other posters exposed your misinformation in the linked tire thread, the same has been done here. So declare what what you want, but if you post inaccurate information expect to have it challenged.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3219435/11

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Are you on drugs?

No, you?
Sorry to hear that. It would have at least given you an excuse.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
.... as Capri Racer and other posters exposed your misinformation ....

It's bad enough when one of you infects a friendly discussion, but when you form cliques and clans and try to link unrelated threads ...

I'll retire to Bedlam.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
...I'll retire to Bedlam

Best thing I've read from you in this thread.