BMW oil Specification Question... Puzzling?

[Audi Junkie]

Who will go on the record that 5w30 conventional in winter and conventional 10w40 will kill a normal BMW engine driven moderately with OCIs not exceeding 5000 miles?

It goes back to that argument of "is synthetic 2x as good as dino"?

If I drove 12k a year in a newer BMW and had the choice of 2 changes of dino or one change of BMW synthetic....I grab the 2 jugs of Pennzoil and NEVER LOOK BACK.

As far as HT/HS, OP Temp and wear, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 seems to work fine in Audis, even turbos, that spec similar oil to the BMW....even in summer. That cannot be disputed.

As far the BMW fanbois with their Mobil 1 5w30, they are retarded, because they don't know enough to make an informed decision. Likely they could get good-as or better results with conventional 10w30. The irony is that they don't probally have any problems because of the issues I mentioned earlier. They probally don't drive as hard as they think they do in terms of really heating the oil to the point the thin visc is a problem. The thin visc probally helps them because they don't observe proper warm-up and hammer the engine cold.

Call them out on it and have them pull a used oil analysis and note their typical max oil temp. Wear will track with temps....like I said.

Paging Dr.Hass to the Oil Phone.

http://www.widman.biz/Seleccion/Viscosidad/Conversiones/Graph/graph.html

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
It's simple. We've got too much mundane oil to dispose of in the field.

Gary, I sincerely appreciate that you can maintain your sense of humor after our punch-ups.

I think we would both agree that there are design choices and ingenuity on both sides of the Atlantic. The domestic makes produce clean, low-maintenance engines that often make good power but aren't as exciting; the Germans can light your hair on fire all day but require a few more bucks and a little more attention. Am I right?

 

[Audi Junkie]

I think the Astra is an excellent example.

In Europe they spec a Opel/GM LL-025A oil with a HT/HS of 3.5cP and extended drains out to 20,000 miles.

In USA, the same engine gets 5w30 conventional with an OLM calibrated for it, 10k max.

What's the problem?

 

[d00df00d]

Yes. And even when other companies are doing similarly, BMW lists the same oil spec everywhere in the world.

Either BMW is artificially imposing a reason for manufacturers to pay for certification (although that would seem like a rather slow way to make money), or there is something about BMW engines that honestly requires that spec.

As jpr said, anyone is more than welcome to take that risk. I can't speak for everyone here but I have no beef with that. Pretending to know more than BMW's engineers is a different matter.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
A lot of Honda engines do that or fall into that category.

The biggest Honda engine in that neighborhood is 1 L smaller, has 2 fewer cylinders, and makes 90 hp and 100 lb-ft less than the BMW S54, which is the smallest BMW engine that takes 10w-60.

All of those Honda engines are considered weak at low RPMs (far less torque per liter than the S54), and they all have larger rod/stroke ratios than the S54.

Of those Honda engines, which ones are designed to run continuously near maximum output for hours on end, every day, even in hot weather, for years, on the factory oil and >10,000 mile OCIs? The S54 can do that, even in conditions that drive oil temps up to 150 degrees C -- that's sump temp, not hot spots.


100hp/L NA is 100hp/L and 8K redline is an 8K redline. I would say the fact Honda was doing it with a very long stroke and short rod 4cylinder is more impressive since 4cyls have higher forces than a 6. Honda was near that hp/L and redline in their 3L V6 around 1990. There are other manufactures that were close to these limits and specifying 5W30 and 5w20 conventional. Anyway, I think you are changing the argument with hot driving and extended OCI, since no one said you could drive your BMW in all conditions with non-spec oils. But I'm sure many people have ran their Honda's and other models flat out with 30 weight oil with no problems..


Quote:
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
But I would say though that a lot of supercharged and turbo charged engines with higher HP/L and near 8K RPM redlines probably stress the oil as much or more.

Agreed. And you'd be foolish to run a garden-variety 20- or 30-weight oil in them.

Most of those are tuner specials anyway. The only stock 8k RPM forced induction engine I can think of is the old RB26DETT in the Nissan Skyline GT-R. That took a 40-weight IIRC, and it definitely did not spec 15,000 mile OCIs like BMW does.
[/quote]

There are some production forced induction engines that are over 120 hp/L and very close to 8K redline that spec 30 weights. But again I think you are changing the argument by throwing extended OCI in, but I'm sure a lot of the engines are ran as hard as BMWs and can handle extended OCI on 20 and 30 weight oil. Sure, it might not be factory recommend but it's all really a sperate argument and really who knows how long they will go till their OLM goes off. Point is many manufacture don't require a 40, 50 or 60 weight to do it. I just don't like the idea of a 0 to 40 weight spread, or any viscosity soread over 30 really.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Yes. And even when other companies are doing similarly, BMW lists the same oil spec everywhere in the world.

Either BMW is artificially imposing a reason for manufacturers to pay for certification (although that would seem like a rather slow way to make money), or there is something about BMW engines that honestly requires that spec.

As jpr said, anyone is more than welcome to take that risk. I can't speak for everyone here but I have no beef with that. Pretending to know more than BMW's engineers is a different matter.

I'm still waiting for the one who said "A high-miles oil like MaxLife would be excellent, UOA w/TBN to verify the interval.

Who amongst you will volenteer?" about an 03 BMW to step up and do it. Or how they like to point out what AEHass does, but again, not do it themselves....

 

[sprintman]

My independent BMW, Porsche, Merc shop owner loves all the BMW owmers running the wrong oil. He gets to rebuild most of their engines. Personally I don't like the 25,000 km oci but for leased vehicles would the owners care? And no I wouldn't run XW20 in the winter, 0/5W40 w/HTHS min of 3.5 does very well for me..

 

[Audi Junkie]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Pretending to know more than BMW's engineers is a different matter.

Well, we know more about the oils available on the North America market and their price points. We can decide for ourselves how often we like to change our oil and we can make decisions about our climate, trip length and driving styles too.

My mom who gently drives her 4-banger VW very short trips and parks outside in winter can use thinner than 5w-40 oil, for shure. It's infact getting a fill from my overly large stash of Havoline 5w-20, with a quart of SAE 30. Later in the summer I'll add a half-bottle of MLEP to make it out to the next year's oil change.

The manual isn't written by engineers, rather marketing and customer relations. It's simpler for them to spec BMW oil and have customers return as infrequently as possible to complain about other problems.

 

[sprintman]

Maybe the manual for NA sold BMW's is different? I'd be interested in the actual wording for an E46 manual as compared to mine. Who's got one?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
100hp/L NA is 100hp/L and 8K redline is an 8K redline.

No, it isn't. It's one thing to make an engine do that with sensible geometry and expect it to run that way every so often (Honda). It's another thing to have a shorter rod/stroke ratio and expect the engine to run all day long at maximum output and temp (BMW).


Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I would say the fact Honda was doing it with a very long stroke and short rod 4cylinder is more impressive since 4cyls have higher forces than a 6.

Honda F22C
Stroke length: 90.7 mm
Rod length: 149.9 mm
hp/L: 109.09
lb-ft/L: 69.09

BMW S54
Stroke length: 91 mm
Rod length: 139 mm
hp/L: 104.0625
lb-ft/L: 81.875


Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Honda was near that hp/L and redline in their 3L V6 around 1990.

Honda NSX. 270 HP @ 7300 RPM, 90 hp/L, 90mm bore, 78mm stroke.


Originally Posted By: mechanicx
There are other manufactures that were close to these limits and specifying 5W30 and 5w20 conventional.

Please name some.


Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Anyway, I think you are changing the argument with hot driving and extended OCI, since no one said you could drive your BMW in all conditions with non-spec oils.

Those are the parameters that BMW specifies, which is why they specify such a heavy oil (temp) with such a robust formulation (stress + OCI).

If they hadn't intended the engine to be used that way and didn't want to account for it, they would specify a lighter and weaker oil.

If other manufacturers had intended the engine to be used that way and wanted to account for it, they would specify heavier and more robust oils.

And by the way, if you want to talk about changing the subject, why did you bring up BMW's M engines? They are the only ones that take the 10w-60. The rest take 5w30.


Originally Posted By: mechanicx
There are some production forced induction engines that are over 120 hp/L and very close to 8K redline that spec 30 weights.

Again, please point some out.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Well, we know more about the oils available on the North America market and their price points. We can decide for ourselves how often we like to change our oil and we can make decisions about our climate, trip length and driving styles too.

Yes indeed.

By the same token, it has to be recognized that BMW has reams of test data on these engines, and we have virtually none. In other words, each party has half the story.

We need to make a distinction between "my driving is very different from what BMW intended so I'm gonna take a chance based on what I know" and "I think BMW's recommendations are worthless." That's what I'm getting at.

 

[Craig in Canada]

My take on things is that the BMW LL certifications encompass a lot of factors and if you have a BMW under warranty you would probably be best to find your favourite LL-xx which meets your car's requirements and stick with it. There are lots of great LL oils out there, it isn't as if they won't get the job done. They might be harder to find, or cost a couple of dollars more, but they're out there.

I, along with many others, don't run the full BMW interval. Handling the long factory service interval is a big part of the LL specs along with other characteristics like viscosity and HTHS. Because of this, and being well out of warranty, I consider the "BMW LL" label on the bottle to be optional. I do not, however, consider the ACEA A3 part to be optional for any BMW I "service" or recommend service on.

I run GC in the winter, and probably would even if it didn't carry BMW LL. I think it's a great oil which is well suited to my vehicle, my driving, and my climate. The summer is a different story, however. Once you get into 40 weights MOST oils carry ACEA A3 and as long as they aren't run "too long" will do a dandy job in a BMW. Rotella, Delo, Delvac, GTX and need-I-go-on are trivial to find in the North American market and carry A3 ratings. Claiming that you can't find an ACEA A3 oil in your area is rubbish, especially considering how much more selection the average US town has over anywhere in Canada.

If GC didn't exist, I'd probably run a syn 5W40 year-round. If I lived in a warmer climate I'd probably run a 15w40 conventional HDEO year round. Again, I don't run anywhere close to the BMW OLM interval so I have lots of choice with ACEA A3.

Going thinner than A3 is a completely different question than whether "LL" has to be stamped on the bottle. Wagering that you're a gentle driver and it's cold outside and running 20 weight is something I simply don't see a point in. Across the pond Europeans run 20W50 in these same engines all the time, whether the factory tells then to or not. Unintentially running a 30 weight like GC a little cool is going to do less harm than running 20 weight a little hot. Furthermore all of the papers out there indicating that wear is directly reduced as HTHS goes up, even within the same grade, leaves me stumped as to why folks would volunteer for more wear.

 

[jpr]

As an analogy, while the E46 BMW has roughly a 16 gallon fuel tank, you could make it your practice never fill it to more than 1/4 tank based on the logic that you are never more than 80 miles or so from a gas station. An alternate approach would be to fill the tank full once, but then make it your practice to never let it get below 3/4 tank. While both approaches have you making a lot of trips to the gas station to get 4 gallons at a time, the margin of error in each approach is vastly different.

Even better, you could top it off then refill it when it gets to 1/4 gallon, buy 12 gallons of fuel and spend 2/3rd's less of life hanging out at the gas station.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
It's simple. We've got too much mundane oil to dispose of in the field.

Gary, I sincerely appreciate that you can maintain your sense of humor after our punch-ups.

I think we would both agree that there are design choices and ingenuity on both sides of the Atlantic. The domestic makes produce clean, low-maintenance engines that often make good power but aren't as exciting; the Germans can light your hair on fire all day but require a few more bucks and a little more attention. Am I right?


Oh ..behind it all there's usually a big smile on my face, albeit at times a wicked one.

We often run into these conflicts in dialog that tend to fall under the umbrella of "why would you want do something like that?" ..followed with "You'll shoot your eye out, kid!".

It also falls somewhat into the line of someone who bought Adirondack chairs for their backyard because they imagined themselves relaxing in the summer sipping ice tea sitting in them ..and finding out that they never had time to relax, sit down, and sip ice tea.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
My take on things is that the BMW LL certifications encompass a lot of factors and if you have a BMW under warranty you would probably be best to find your favourite LL-xx which meets your car's requirements and stick with it. There are lots of great LL oils out there, it isn't as if they won't get the job done. They might be harder to find, or cost a couple of dollars more, but they're out there.


Yes, throw out any of the many non-wear requirements of many Euro oils and the field opens up quite a bit. Something like Delvac 1 meets none of the Euro manufacturer specific spec's ..yet I don't think anyone would say that it cannot perform with 100% reliability and durability if those other spec's are ignored where some more refined product like Mobil 1 0w-40 is recommended.

I don't think anyone will insist on proof of that (and you and I are in agreement - keep that in mind

).

Quote:
I, along with many others, don't run the full BMW interval. Handling the long factory service interval is a big part of the LL specs along with other characteristics like viscosity and HTHS. Because of this, and being well out of warranty, I consider the "BMW LL" label on the bottle to be optional. I do not, however, consider the ACEA A3 part to be optional for any BMW I "service" or recommend service on.


Probably a wise move by a service provider.

Quote:
. Claiming that you can't find an ACEA A3 oil in your area is rubbish, especially considering how much more selection the average US town has over anywhere in Canada..../....If GC didn't exist, I'd probably run a syn 5W40 year-round. If I lived in a warmer climate I'd probably run a 15w40 conventional HDEO year round. Again, I don't run anywhere close to the BMW OLM interval so I have lots of choice with ACEA A3.


Sensible and vaild points of an end user.

Quote:
Going thinner than A3 is a completely different question than whether "LL" has to be stamped on the bottle. Wagering that you're a gentle driver and it's cold outside and running 20 weight is something I simply don't see a point in.


..but now we see a shift. You see your rationalization from the steadfast adherence to OEM spec's due to your selective plucking from attributes from the virtual Chinese menu of spec's "I don't need the attribute from column A ..but need 2 from column B and all from column C ..so this is my inventory of available oils" ..but are now seeing flaw in someone dropping something that you see essential and they, due to their particular ..or peculiar service profile ..do not.

I hope that we all understand that, for ourselves, we're always going to be 100% rationally centered on everything we do.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Funny that Delo 15w40 carried A3 on it's label for a while.

How many BMW service people do you think know this?

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: sprintman
Maybe the manual for NA sold BMW's is different? I'd be interested in the actual wording for an E46 manual as compared to mine. Who's got one?


http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/owner/dgh.aspx

 

[JohnBrowning]

HTHS and general Visc for that matter is dependent on the size of the rod and main journals and how fast you spin them. This all goes to heat and hydrodynamic wedge effect eetc.....etc...... When a German builds a sports car he assumes you are going to drive it 160+MPH as often as youc an for extended periods of time. Most low HTHS oils like say Mobil 1 5W30 with an HTHS of 2.9 would not do well in a car thatis [censored] bent on turning 9000 rpms for 1-2 hours at 4AM when the Autobahn is empty and perfect for extended high RPM and high speed driving.

Any M3 is by default revamped with performance in mind fromt he engine to the spacing of the gears's height and the suspension tuning etc.......

I know I tossed out Lexus earlier being a smart butt! I am sure the LFA will have some type of oil requirment minimum to keep dumb AMericans from running 5w30 conventional Valvoline etc....in it. I would say get over it how much do you need to wine about it.

Find an oil that works good in it with reguard to low wear numbers and not excessive oil consumption and call it good.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

Quote:
Going thinner than A3 is a completely different question than whether "LL" has to be stamped on the bottle. Wagering that you're a gentle driver and it's cold outside and running 20 weight is something I simply don't see a point in.


..but now we see a shift. You see your rationalization from the steadfast adherence to OEM spec's due to your selective plucking from attributes from the virtual Chinese menu of spec's "I don't need the attribute from column A ..but need 2 from column B and all from column C ..so this is my inventory of available oils" ..but are now seeing flaw in someone dropping something that you see essential and they, due to their particular ..or peculiar service profile ..do not.

I hope that we all understand that, for ourselves, we're always going to be 100% rationally centered on everything we do.

I see what you're driving at, but my point is that deciding to run at least ACEA A3 instead of a full BMW LL licensed oil is discounting one of the characteristics - the long-drain aspects. Deciding to throw 5W20 in a BMW is throwing all of them away (except perhaps that the sump must contain 7L of engine oil).

Meeting ACEA A3 means a whole lot of things, but the principal thing it tells me is HTHS >=3.5 which, with present formulations, also means that it's also at least a heavy 30 - all of the things an eager BMW needs.

The fact that the factory sets a "no less than" spec on HTHS means to me that there's room to err thick, but it would be a bad idea to err thin. This is why throwing out BMW LL and ACEA A3 and even "30 weight" when shopping for an oil because you think you know better strikes me as simply not worth it for whatever the perceived upside is.

It gets cold in Europe too, guys.

 

[Lyondellic]

I found a link to a document that seems to contain a fairly decent explanation of the whys/hows of the HTHS specification. Keep in mind that I can't vouch for the source, nor do I know if the technical details are accurate. On the surface, I must admit that it appears as thought we (the USA) appear to lag Europe when it comes to