BMW oil Specification Question... Puzzling?

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Originally Posted By: E365
I was thinking that might be the case. So they must have sold both a BMW branded 5w30 AND 5w-40 back in the day? I'm pretty sure the only BMW dealer oils now are the BMW 5w30 and 10w-60 TWS Castrol.

I think I remember seeing a picture of a BMW 5w-40 (or possibly a 15w40) bottle once.

Yes there was a 5w-40 back in the day (from Valvoline as I understand). It is no longer sold.

There was also a 15w40. It is still sold for owners of older cars who want to stick with that oil.
 
As a member of 15 BMW forums worldwide I've been thinking about how to best answr the OP's question. Only on the U.S BMW forums do they struggle with the correct spec oil to use (BMWNA have a LOT to answer for).. the best way is to understand
A) 5W30 per se is NOT the oil recommendation but oil that meets ACEA A3,B3 & LL01. The oil BMW NA sells meets this spec and just happens to be a 5W30. Just about averywhere else in the world uses 0W40.

B) Mobil 1 5W30 is easily the most used incorrect oil spec, and I spend hours on the U.S forums explaining why it is incorrect, as is Mobil 1 0W30, and 10W30 (to thin HTHS to low). There has been a change over the last 12mths and more are using Mobil 1 0W40 insread of 5W30 but some just can't get their head around it. JPR, myself and a few others have 'fought the good fight' but prety much tired of it and now just let it go. one particular individual called out called us 'elite' and 'college boys', that one threw me, and as the mods little pet I ended up getting myself banned. So beware U.S BMW Mobil 1 5W30 'fan boys' at your peril!
 
Originally Posted By: sprintman
As a member of 15 BMW forums worldwide I've been thinking about how to best answr the OP's question. Only on the U.S BMW forums do they struggle with the correct spec oil to use (BMWNA have a LOT to answer for).. the best way is to understand
A) 5W30 per se is NOT the oil recommendation but oil that meets ACEA A3,B3 & LL01. The oil BMW NA sells meets this spec and just happens to be a 5W30. Just about averywhere else in the world uses 0W40.

B) Mobil 1 5W30 is easily the most used incorrect oil spec, and I spend hours on the U.S forums explaining why it is incorrect, as is Mobil 1 0W30, and 10W30 (to thin HTHS to low). There has been a change over the last 12mths and more are using Mobil 1 0W40 insread of 5W30 but some just can't get their head around it. JPR, myself and a few others have 'fought the good fight' but prety much tired of it and now just let it go. one particular individual called out called us 'elite' and 'college boys', that one threw me, and as the mods little pet I ended up getting myself banned. So beware U.S BMW Mobil 1 5W30 'fan boys' at your peril!


Thanks Sprintman! Whereas all the posts have been helpful and thought provoking, yours is the explanation I was looking for. Not being one to understand all the specs on add packs, I see 5w30 syntheic and assume that if bmw is 5w30 then why can't I use Mobil 1 5w30 well, your explanation makes it clear to me. I'm going to print this and copy it to my dip stick, Jimmee!

Any way as for the college boy slam, we are a land of diversity and the knuckle heads thrive here in America and we have a lot of them... Keep fighting the good fight for those like me who want to understand.

Going forward I'll stick with the LL-01 or Mobil 1 Euro 0w40. Thanks.
 
sprintman sure sounds like he is on top of this issue!

Add to this the fact that German cars historically have spec'd thicker oils than most anyone else.
 
I'd forget about trying to meet BMW's spec. There are lots of oils that are superior to some of the oils tested for that spec. but don't test for it.

If it were my car I would run Redline, Motul 300V, or another proven high quality oil. I want the best for my car and for me these "spec" oils are often built down to a spec. In other words, they reach the minimum the manufacturer recommends. I want the best oil for my car from all of the oils available, not just the best oil on a limited manufacturer's approved list.
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Here's the deal, and it's what people still don't seem to get.

The thin USA 5w30 will be as thick as a 5w-40 at just 20 degrees cooler operating temp.

So, unless you are heating your oil up like you are driving on the Autobahn, the oil with a thinner starting visc will work the same or better than the 5w-40 (or thick Euro 5w30). In cool climates or under a short trip situation, the substantially thinner starting visc of 5w30 will serve you well. Even with normal and spirited hwy driving, plain USA 5w30 Synthetic is fine.

Other than the visc, the Euro specs are all about extended ocis, as far as this discussion goes.

I calculated the oil temp of a member here in a Z3 with BMW oil driven extremely hard to go down to 9cSt, a 20 weight. So, a bottled 20 weight oil, ran at +100c would be the same visc as the BMW oil at +130c or whatever he reported.

Does you car have an oil temp gauge?


+1

And that's the reason I run a 5W-20 with confidence in my E36 grocery getter, particularly in the winter months. The Bimmer has a lightly finned aluminum sump that is in the air flow. When the ambient temperature is in the single digits Celsius or lower it's difficult to keep the oil temps above 85C at highway speeds.
90% of the engines running time is warm-up mode not based on the coolant temp but rather the oil temp.
I keep the oil level at the low end of the range (I check it frequently although there no noticeable consumption). In the summer and I'm planning on a long drive on a hot day I'll add a litre of 40 or 50wt oil bumping the sump vis into the 30wt range more for piece of mind than anything else.
 
This is why (my opinion) I can run 0w-10 oil. I don't think that I have a power density capable of ever challenging the HTHS of whatever it is (>2.6 - who knows how much). I know that floored up 6-8% grades I can't even tax the cooling system (which is identical to one for 1.5 more liters).
 
Originally Posted By: sprintman
As a member of 15 BMW forums worldwide I've been thinking about how to best answr the OP's question. Only on the U.S BMW forums do they struggle with the correct spec oil to use (BMWNA have a LOT to answer for).. the best way is to understand
A) 5W30 per se is NOT the oil recommendation but oil that meets ACEA A3,B3 & LL01. The oil BMW NA sells meets this spec and just happens to be a 5W30. Just about averywhere else in the world uses 0W40.

B) Mobil 1 5W30 is easily the most used incorrect oil spec, and I spend hours on the U.S forums explaining why it is incorrect, as is Mobil 1 0W30, and 10W30 (to thin HTHS to low). There has been a change over the last 12mths and more are using Mobil 1 0W40 insread of 5W30 but some just can't get their head around it. JPR, myself and a few others have 'fought the good fight' but prety much tired of it and now just let it go. one particular individual called out called us 'elite' and 'college boys', that one threw me, and as the mods little pet I ended up getting myself banned. So beware U.S BMW Mobil 1 5W30 'fan boys' at your peril!


First, I totally agree that a ACEA A3/BMW LL-01 oils are the best thing to use in BMWs and I've only used those spec oils. But.....

Mobil1 1 0w-40 is the only BMW LL-01 oil that you don't have to search for in the US. Also, I have a bunch of US spec owner's manuals here (.pdf) and the first time BMW even mentions the use of a BMW LL-01 oil in in the 2009 E90 & E60 manuals. The 2008 and earlier E90 & E60 manuals do not mention it, nor do any E46 manuals.

What I'm getting at is that unless the BMW owner is an "enthusiast", there's no way one would know to use such oils. I blame BMW. They have notoriously been vague at best with their fluid specs.

Can Mobil 1 5w30 really be THAT bad for a 15 year old BMW that was built before any BMW LL spec existed. Or before synthetic oils were even on the market?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: E365

What I'm getting at is that unless the BMW owner is an "enthusiast", there's no way one would know to use such oils. I blame BMW. They have notoriously been vague at best with their fluid specs.

Yup. In the US, it partly stems from the fact that your new BMW comes with "free" maintenance, so you're expected to bring it in to the dealer for an oil change, and the dealer is supposed to use the correct oil. They're trying to create this image of providing a maintenance-free car, so being specific about exactly what fluids to use is not really one of their top priorities.
 
Originally Posted By: sprintman
CATERHAM as HTHS is the spec that's important tell us the HTHS of the 5W20 you are using?


The HTHS minimum viscosity spec' for my BMW engine is 3.5 cP. The way I operate the car the oil temp' doesn't even hit 100C let alone 150C (the temp at which the HTHS spec' is given).
Consiquently, even though I'm running a 20wt oil (with a HTHS vis of say 2.9 cP) it's a purely academic spec since my oil temps are so well contained and therefore the minimum viscosity safety margin is very high.
The HTHS spec of the oil is only important if you are indeed having oil temps approaching 150C.
 
Originally Posted By: E365


First, I totally agree that a ACEA A3/BMW LL-01 oils are the best thing to use in BMWs and I've only used those spec oils. But.....

Mobil1 1 0w-40 is the only BMW LL-01 oil that you don't have to search for in the US. Also, I have a bunch of US spec owner's manuals here (.pdf) and the first time BMW even mentions the use of a BMW LL-01 oil in in the 2009 E90 & E60 manuals. The 2008 and earlier E90 & E60 manuals do not mention it, nor do any E46 manuals.

What I'm getting at is that unless the BMW owner is an "enthusiast", there's no way one would know to use such oils. I blame BMW. They have notoriously been vague at best with their fluid specs.


I'm going from memory, but I believe their recommendation to use BMW approved synthetics is where it comes from. They don't say "LL-01" or "LL-04", they say "BMW approved". I believe that they probably feel specifying "LL-0x" to the average consumer is too complex.

My E39 manual has a wide range of viscosity and temperature combinations, including 15W40. There is only one ACEA A3 0W30 - GC. There are more ACEA A3 5W30s, including BMW's own. Most anything Xw40 is ACEA A3 and shouldn't be hard to find.

Quote:

Can Mobil 1 5w30 really be THAT bad for a 15 year old BMW that was built before any BMW LL spec existed. Or before synthetic oils were even on the market?


The problem with Mobil 1 5W30 is too thin. If anything typical "wisdom" around here is that older needs thicker, and going THINNER than the original spec 15 years down the road is the opposite direction that you want to go.

I see the Mobil 1 fanboys incorrectly pouring Mobil 1 5W30 into their BMWs every day, however, not realizing that it simply isn't what it used to be in its earlier forms.

BMW specs ACEA A3 (inclusively since all BMW LL-xx oils must start by meeting A3)...period. From there we can deduce that that only leaves a couple of the thickest 30s, and plenty of 40s and 50s to choose from.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The way I operate the car the oil temp' doesn't even hit 100C

What oil temps are you observing when hwy driving? And where is the sensor located?

Quote:

The HTHS spec of the oil is only important if you are indeed having oil temps approaching 150C.

I don't think any BMW engines actually reach that temp, even during extended high speed driving. But wouldn't it be safe to assume that an oil that is very shear-stable at 150C would also be more shear-stable at lower temps? Another words, just because it is measured at 150C, it doesn't necessarily mean that the benefits of it aren't present throughout the operating range.
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
the HTHS viscosity has a lot to do with the operating temperature reached by certain components. It has nothing (in simple terms) to do with the engine's bulk oil temp.

Indeed.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: sprintman
CATERHAM as HTHS is the spec that's important tell us the HTHS of the 5W20 you are using?


The HTHS minimum viscosity spec' for my BMW engine is 3.5 cP. The way I operate the car the oil temp' doesn't even hit 100C let alone 150C (the temp at which the HTHS spec' is given).
Consiquently, even though I'm running a 20wt oil (with a HTHS vis of say 2.9 cP) it's a purely academic spec since my oil temps are so well contained and therefore the minimum viscosity safety margin is very high.
The HTHS spec of the oil is only important if you are indeed having oil temps approaching 150C.


IMO you can make arguments about running a thinner oil based on your average oil temperature when speaking of straight viscosity.

Your rationale there is that if the engine is designed for 14cSt but only reaches 85C, you may need an oil rated 10cSt@100C to meet 14cSt@85C. If you run a 14cSt@100C rated oil you may in fact be running 16cSt at your true operating temperature. (I'm just pulling numbers out of the air to illustrate, not calculating anything). I follow this, and don't disagree, but never follow the practice. Partially because...

I don't feel this applies as easily to HTHS. If HTHS only mattered at 150C, then small 4cyl owners wouldn't feel the drop in fuel economy and power from switching to GC from something with lower HTHS. GC is still in the same grade as what they were running before, but takes a substantial step up in HTHS from "energy conserving" oils.

The 150C figure is about the HTHS test and not the only temperature where that property matters.

HTHS can speak to shear resistance, high RPM characteristics, and properties of the oil under high pressure in small spaces (ie. variable valve timing gear). It's not oil related but if one's engine never gets warm and one never drives at high RPM nor high power output - why drive a BMW at all?

Most 30s on the market don't meet BMW's own spec, let alone 20s. You've decided you know better than BMW about how to lubricate their engine. You can make that choice, I guess, but you do it at your own peril and for what benefit? Since BMW's spec goes from heavy 30s to 50s (and even 60 for some models) I am not particular concerned about my 30 weight being "too thick" for the engine because it might only get to 85C. So it *might* effectively be a 40 in those conditions - that's still in range. Regardless of the pan temperature it's still pretty hot at the rings, and I'll be sticking with the spec.
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
the HTHS viscosity has a lot to do with the operating temperature reached by certain components. It has nothing (in simple terms) to do with the engine's bulk oil temp.


Really, no correlation?
It wasn't that long ago that manufacturers would list the conditions under which practically ever oil grade and type (mineral or synthetic) available could be used. Everything from a 5W-20 to a 20W-50. The main criterion was ambient temp followed by limited high speed use with the lighter grades such as 5W-20. My 928 comes to mind in that regard. The HTHS vis of these oil will vary markedly.
I think the mfr's got away from those highly complicated oil viscosity charts because they were just too much for the average consumer to deal with.
 
Originally Posted By: sprintman
CATERHAM you bestter go back to school! (engines don't rum 150C oil temps) BMW set the spec as min HTHS 3.5, it's you that thinks you know better than BMW, not me mate.


Correct or not, someone posted that HTHS spec is tested at 150C. Don't mean to get in the middle or anything.
 
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