BMW iM3 - The Future Electric M3 Super Sedan

[chris719]

This is a stock i4 m50
View attachment 191302
This is a stock model s plaid
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Obviously the Plaid is quicker, but I chose it thinking its software and motors would be the best Tesla had (note, its a 2023).

Notice the notches at the beginning of each car's run. This is traction loss and recovery. Both cars are obviously powerful enough to spin the tires, given zero governance. I do not find Tesla's governance to appear any more advanced than BMW's. Can you provide a counterpoint with evidence?

I don’t mean from a launch control / hard launch standpoint. A 911 Turbo S will destroy a lot of things with launch control enabled. I already did say I didn’t drive the BMW. I mean just in general the Teslas provide such a high sample rate on their traction control that you don’t even get spin at all when you get on it; my friend knows his tires are getting old when his measured times start getting slower before it’s actually perceptible. Now, maybe others have caught up but Ford and GM haven’t I can tell you that.

I can’t comment on those graphs because they are clearly quite low pass filtered. Maybe it’s representative, but it’s still not really telling you much. Imagine if the BMW had the power of the Plaid. Would it still look the same? Hard to say. The BMW almost certainly has a better grip-to-power ratio, meaning it’s going to be less likely to push the limits of the system.

 

[Torrid]

I haven’t yet unfortunately.

I haven’t either. I’m curious about BMW’s EV offerings of course but currently not being in the market for a car I haven’t worked up the time to drive 45 minutes to a dealer. If it was closer I might, but I feel bad wasting car salesman’s time if there isn’t a possibility of me buying. I’ve never seen the i4 in person.

 

[Torrid]

This is a stock i4 m50
View attachment 191302
This is a stock model s plaid
View attachment 191303

Obviously the Plaid is quicker, but I chose it thinking its software and motors would be the best Tesla had (note, its a 2023).

Notice the notches at the beginning of each car's run. This is traction loss and recovery. Both cars are obviously powerful enough to spin the tires, given zero governance. I do not find Tesla's governance to appear any more advanced than BMW's. Can you provide a counterpoint with evidence?

Look again at the peaks and valleys in those spikes especially considering the level of acceleration of those cars and ask yourself again. There’s a lot less variation in the Tesla. That could be mechanical grip too but it seems to support what was said in this thread.

 

[OVERKILL]

Look again at the peaks and valleys in those spikes especially considering the level of acceleration of those cars and ask yourself again. There’s a lot less variation in the Tesla. That could be mechanical grip too but it seems to support what was said in this thread.

Most of that is above 25mph, I can tell you the i4 M50 isn't trying hard to mitigate spin at that speed.

 

[OVERKILL]

Model Y LR AWD with the Acceleration Boost upgrade:

The slope makes this run invalid, but here's a Model 3 Performance:

 

[Ws6]

Look again at the peaks and valleys in those spikes especially considering the level of acceleration of those cars and ask yourself again. There’s a lot less variation in the Tesla. That could be mechanical grip too but it seems to support what was said in this thread.

Look at the road surfaces. The Tesla appears to have been on a much better surface, judging by the flatness.

 

[Ws6]

Most of that is above 25mph, I can tell you the i4 M50 isn't trying hard to mitigate spin at that speed.

I don't know, I think it's doing a lot behind the scenes even past 25mph with the fronts especially. I can spin my PSAS4's on clean dry pavement past 25mph up front and have more meat up front than the BMW does, and have a less powerful motor up front to boot. The cars have similar weight and distribution of said weight. The rears on the BMW likely do legit just hook up, as mine do and are narrower and have more power to them than the BMW (Kia rear-biased the GT pretty hard).

 

[Torrid]

Most of that is above 25mph, I can tell you the i4 M50 isn't trying hard to mitigate spin at that speed.

That may be the case, but wasn’t that the exact point of what was said about Tesla’s traction control? Personally I don’t like how under wraps the Tesla feels in wheel slip. I’m used to having modified cars where controlling wheel spin can be an advantage.

 

[Ws6]

I don’t mean from a launch control / hard launch standpoint. A 911 Turbo S will destroy a lot of things with launch control enabled. I already did say I didn’t drive the BMW. I mean just in general the Teslas provide such a high sample rate on their traction control that you don’t even get spin at all when you get on it; my friend knows his tires are getting old when his measured times start getting slower before it’s actually perceptible. Now, maybe others have caught up but Ford and GM haven’t I can tell you that.

I can’t comment on those graphs because they are clearly quite low pass filtered. Maybe it’s representative, but it’s still not really telling you much. Imagine if the BMW had the power of the Plaid. Would it still look the same? Hard to say. The BMW almost certainly has a better grip-to-power ratio, meaning it’s going to be less likely to push the limits of the system.

My Volvo C40 was like that. It was glued down even in the rain. Just absolutely raw mad traction. It had 480+ pounds of torque and 235's up front, lol! So I know some wizardry was going on. That said, I don't think it's anything special, as sample speed isn't a huge deal with EV motors. If Volvo can do it, so can anyone else. A little spin is fun, IMO, and some of these cars are also about fun and feel. IE Tesla allows you to turn it off, etc.

 

[Torrid]

My Volvo C40 was like that. It was glued down even in the rain. Just absolutely raw mad traction. It had 480+ pounds of torque and 235's up front, lol! So I know some wizardry was going on. That said, I don't think it's anything special, as sample speed isn't a huge deal with EV motors. If Volvo can do it, so can anyone else. A little spin is fun, IMO, and some of these cars are also about fun and feel. IE Tesla allows you to turn it off, etc.

Unfortunately turning it off only equals any real fun in upper trim levels. The RWD Model 3 gives you slip start for adverse weather, but there’s no real TCS Off setting. What I’ve found is that attempting a slide will allow you to get the car completely crossed up with the wheel at full opposite lock and then it will full ABS brake and stop you.

Basically I was making a right hand turn and kicked the tail out and it stopped me at about a 45 degree angle to the lane with the wheel at full opposite lock and no throttle control until it completely stopped.

 

[Ws6]

Unfortunately turning it off only equals any real fun in upper trim levels. The RWD Model 3 gives you slip start for adverse weather, but there’s no real TCS Off setting. What I’ve found is that attempting a slide will allow you to get the car completely crossed up with the wheel at full opposite lock and then it will full ABS brake and stop you.

Basically I was making a right hand turn and kicked the tail out and it stopped me at about a 45 degree angle to the lane with the wheel at full opposite lock and no throttle control until it completely stopped.

I thought you had a M3P?

 

[Torrid]

I thought you had a M3P?

No, I was planning to buy one. I bought the RWD for my wife. I’ve still been driving the Stage 1 GTI.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I don't agree with you on Musk or Tesla necessarily, but I wholeheartedly agree with you on the benefits of vertical integration for software and electronics. I design both and it's plain to see that you're going to get a sub-par product or at least a late/slow development cycle if you constantly send out requirements and RFPs asking Bosch/Siemens/Continental to write all your stuff and then come back and integrate it. Apple's success is largely due to the fact that they control their entire ecosystem. That doesn't mean you can't use off-the-shelf components, but I don't think doing what the automotive guys currently do by buying already-dated libraries and electronics and gluing them together is ever going to get you a cutting edge product from a software and electronics standpoint.

Outsourcing development has its benefits and drawbacks. Ditto Vertical Integration. Both have their places, and both are filthy expensive.
If you want something better, by definition that means different.
Tech is a differentiator, a disrupter and done right can be a competitive advantage.

@OVERKILL enumerated the accelerated life cycles driven by technology. Living and working in Silicon Valley, this is part of life. Change is the only constant. Apple has been mentioned numerous times in my thread; they have reinvented themselves with cutting edge tech (bleeding edge?) and are the jewel of Silicon Valley. They are not afraid of being different; in fact Apple bets the company on it. Leaders do not follow.

Tesla is known as a technology company that makes cars.
I have posted before about my meetings with their CIO and staff regarding coding their own ERP application (project Warp Drive); Musk hates SAP (as do I). What CIO in their right mind would consider such a thing?

This is why I salute BMW for their project initiative Heart of Joy controller; a truly bold move. Anyone can cobble together components; that's an incremental improvement at best. I believe manufacturing companies will need to move towards tech to survive. Industry 4.0 and Digital Transformation are evidence of this.
Go big or go home!

 

[UncleDave]

Outsourcing development has its benefits and drawbacks. Ditto Vertical Integration. Both have their places, and both are filthy expensive.

Having had to capitalize on my 70+ R&D team a second year, sadly, offshoring this has never been more attractive.

 

[OVERKILL]

That may be the case, but wasn’t that the exact point of what was said about Tesla’s traction control? Personally I don’t like how under wraps the Tesla feels in wheel slip. I’m used to having modified cars where controlling wheel spin can be an advantage.

See the Model 3 and Model Y graphs I posted, they look just like the i4 ones.

 

[OVERKILL]

I don't know, I think it's doing a lot behind the scenes even past 25mph with the fronts especially. I can spin my PSAS4's on clean dry pavement past 25mph up front and have more meat up front than the BMW does, and have a less powerful motor up front to boot. The cars have similar weight and distribution of said weight. The rears on the BMW likely do legit just hook up, as mine do and are narrower and have more power to them than the BMW (Kia rear-biased the GT pretty hard).

I'm just basing it on my experience stuffing it from a dead stop, it pawed pretty hard from the front coming out of the hole, giving a bit of torque steer, but that tapered off pretty quickly once you were moving and then it just pulled like a freight train. Stuffing it from a decent roll (25-30Mph) didn't invoke any discernible wheelspin, it just squatted and took off.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Having had to capitalize on my 70+ R&D team a second year, sadly, offshoring this has never been more attractive.

Progress has its costs. Capitalism is about winners and losers. Everything changes. Tough call for you to make, UD. You have a tough job. They tried to make me a manager time and time again; I cannot manage people like that.

 

[Torrid]

See the Model 3 and Model Y graphs I posted, they look just like the i4 ones.

That’s why I mentioned that it could be mechanical grip in the case of the Plaid if they weren’t doing something trick with its power delivery.

 

[OVERKILL]

That’s why I mentioned that it could be mechanical grip in the case of the Plaid if they weren’t doing something trick with its power delivery.

It may also be that the profile for a 1020HP car just looks a lot different from one with 500-600HP.

 

[JeffKeryk]

It may also be that the profile for a 1020HP car just looks a lot different from one with 500-600HP.

Now bump that to the 4 motor 1300+ in the top Neue Klasse... Maybe BMW's software integration becomes critical instead of a nice to have?