BMW iM3 - The Future Electric M3 Super Sedan

[edyvw]

We fully agree on the goal being the end product. I just think that the vertical integration helps you get a better product. I manage teams that develop software and electronics and the end product is always much better, or at least, gets to that state cheaper and faster when you control everything in-house. Just look at what Apple's able to do by controlling all software and hardware.

Off-topic but MS Teams is surprisingly bad. Slack + Zoom works so much better. It's a shame that IT people love to pay Microsoft. I thought MS would have learned their lesson after the garbage that was Office Communicator -> Lync -> Skype For Business, but no.

OK, what does that mean for a soccer mom driving three kids to school? WHat is much better? My 2011 BMW has far better AC control then Tesla. I do not have to look at it while driving, do not have to use voice control, nothing. Much faster, and more effective.

 

[OVERKILL]

QNX sucks for a few reasons. First, because it's way behind in terms of support. You want a driver or support for some hardware? Probably doesn't exist if it's newer hardware unless you're willing to fork over $100k+ to their BSP team and wait 6 months. Second, it's a true microkernel RTOS, but most people don't even know why they need an RTOS and end up using it in places that it is wholly unnecessary like GUIs and infotainment systems. RTOS just provided bounded latency, not necessarily low or consistent latency. QNX performance actually suffers compared to Linux and Windows in many ways. Third, even though it's an RTOS it doesn't mean you're immune to all sorts of priority inversion or deadlock problems that I've seen in QNX customer applications. For applications where you need true bounded latency like a control loop, you should just run this on a MCU or similar. For applications where you don't, which is most, you're better off with Linux.

There's only a very narrow set of use cases where it's an actual good idea. Most people who buy it do so because they feel comfortable giving money to someone vs using an open-source OS and having to understand and maintain their own OS. QNX marketing is also really good at scaring people in regulated industries into buying it. I would say it's not very popular on the whole honestly, it's only popular in automotive and somewhat popular in medical.

QNX is Canadian though And one of the few legacies remaining of RIM (of Blackberry infamy) who bought the product when they were still doing well. The short-lived Playbook product ran QNX, and the Blackberry 10 OS was also based on QNX.

Cisco used QNX in IOS-XR (as I noted, IOS-XE is Linux-based), and AECL famously used QNX to run our CANDU nuclear plants, lol. Not sure if that's still the case, but I assume it probably is, given how slow things change in that space.

I had a former business partner, back when I was still just an independent, 20 years or so ago now, who was obsessed with QNX, so I got to hear all about how awesome it was for like 5+ years, lol.

 

[chris719]

OK, what does that mean for a soccer mom driving three kids to school? WHat is much better? My 2011 BMW has far better AC control then Tesla. I do not have to look at it while driving, do not have to use voice control, nothing. Much faster, and more effective.

I'm not specifically sure, but look at the traction control for starters. The Tesla traction control still seems to be much better than all other EVs. I suspect the reason they got to this point earlier than everyone else is because they designed the entire system and software themselves.

Tesla is kind of mismanaged, so I don't know if they are the best example, but I think their idea to in-source everything is a good one.

 

[chris719]

QNX is Canadian though And one of the few legacies remaining of RIM (of Blackberry infamy) who bought the product when they were still doing well. The short-lived Playbook product ran QNX, and the Blackberry 10 OS was also based on QNX.

Cisco used QNX in IOS-XR (as I noted, IOS-XE is Linux-based), and AECL famously used QNX to run our CANDU nuclear plants, lol. Not sure if that's still the case, but I assume it probably is, given how slow things change in that space.

I had a former business partner, back when I was still just an independent, 20 years or so ago now, who was obsessed with QNX, so I got to hear all about how awesome it was for like 5+ years, lol.

Yep it is Canadian. Don't get me wrong, it works. I just find it to be an expensive and unnecessary PITA for anything but safety critical functions , and even then there are other ways to design a system. It is certainly one of those things that's a good idea and better on paper than in reality.

 

[OVERKILL]

Off-topic but MS Teams is surprisingly bad. Slack + Zoom works so much better. It's a shame that IT people love to pay Microsoft. I thought MS would have learned their lesson after the garbage that was Office Communicator -> Lync -> Skype For Business, but no.

We were a very "open" shop when it came to communication platforms during the pandemic. Dealing with various healthcare facilities, who all tended to use different systems (Zoom, WebEx, GoTo Meeting, Teams...etc) I was surprised when staff just started using Teams on their own, with each other. While we had been paying for WebEx for probably a decade, it might get used once or twice a year now, everybody just migrated to Teams on their own.

Since this wasn't in any way orchestrated by management, I have to assume that, in general, users actually just do like Teams.

Of note, everybody hated Skype/Skype for Business, which we had available alongside WebEx.

 

[edyvw]

I'm not specifically sure, but look at the traction control for starters. The Tesla traction control still seems to be much better than all other EVs. I suspect the reason they got to this point earlier than everyone else is because they designed the entire system and software themselves.

In which sense?

 

[chris719]

In which sense?

It seems to find optimal grip and close the loop really quickly. You can stomp on the pedal in a Model S and it just gives you whatever the surface and tires can do. I drove a Mustang Mach E and it wasn't even close. I've also watched some other YT videos and the Tesla loop just seems to work faster.

 

[edyvw]

We were a very "open" shop when it came with communication platforms during the pandemic. Dealing with various healthcare facilities, who all tended to use different systems (Zoom, WebEx, GoTo Meeting, Teams...etc) I was surprised when staff just started using Teams on their own, with each other. While we had been paying for WebEx for probably a decade, it might get used once or twice a year now, everybody just migrated to Teams on their own.

Since this wasn't in any way orchestrated by management, I have to assume that, in general, users actually just do like Teams.

Of note, everybody hated Skype/Skype for Business, which we had available alongside WebEx.

It allows them to be seen as working. I have several coworkers who are constantly sharing gibberish on it.
Like I said, we found out who really needs life.

 

[edyvw]

It seems to find optimal grip and close the loop really quickly. You can stomp on the pedal in a Model S and it just gives you whatever the surface and tires can do. I drove a Mustang Mach E and it wasn't even close. I've also watched some other YT videos and the Tesla loop just seems to work faster.

What flexibility it have? Turning off? Adjusting? I mean some things might be much better, some not. EVerything depends on the end product. Users generally do not care about things they do not need or do not care to control.

 

[chris719]

What flexibility it have? Turning off? Adjusting? I mean some things might be much better, some not. EVerything depends on the end product. Users generally do not care about things they do not need or do not care to control.

I just mean it works better. Less slip and wheelspin. It's much easier to achieve good results when you control motors, suspension, brakes, etc. in a piece of software that is aware rather than 4 modules purchased from Continental and connected via CAN or FlexRay.

 

[edyvw]

I just mean it works better. Less slip and wheelspin. It's much easier to achieve good results when you control motors, suspension, brakes, etc. in a piece of software that is aware rather than 4 modules purchased from Continental and connected via CAN or FlexRay.

Sure. And there are some advantages. Based on Cyber Truck design, it seems software guys still lead the project, not drivers. There is no doubt some things will or could work much better. The end product is what matters.

 

[OVERKILL]

It seems to find optimal grip and close the loop really quickly. You can stomp on the pedal in a Model S and it just gives you whatever the surface and tires can do. I drove a Mustang Mach E and it wasn't even close. I've also watched some other YT videos and the Tesla loop just seems to work faster.

Given this thread is about BMW, did you try the i4 or iX? I got some torque steer from the front wheels pawing but it came out of the hole like an absolute bear.

 

[OVERKILL]

It allows them to be seen as working. I have several coworkers who are constantly sharing gibberish on it.
Like I said, we found out who really needs life.

We don't track that, so there's no incentive for people to "appear" busy. They genuinely just like the software.

 

[edyvw]

We don't track that, so there's no incentive for people to "appear" busy. They genuinely just like the software.

I mean, they are using it for work related stuff, but it is like it allowed them to just find "hobby."
I am in a business where there is no hierarchical ladder. So, easy to ignore. But I still have to peak to see if someone posted something important as they replaced email with teams basically.

 

[OVERKILL]

I mean, they are using it for work related stuff, but it is like it allowed them to just find "hobby."
I am in a business where there is no hierarchical ladder. So, easy to ignore. But I still have to peak to see if someone posted something important as they replaced email with teams basically.

Yes, they do seem to enjoy the DM'ing feature of Teams I've noticed, which also makes it super simple to do "quick meets". The fact it integrates so well with Outlook and SharePoint is also a big plus.

My point was more that Teams isn't bad software if users are choosing to utilize it on their own without a mandate. This sets it apart from the predecessor products that were always hot garbage (Skype and Lync).

There was a period there where Zoom was really popular, maybe a few months or more? and it looked like it was going to replace WebEx, and then out of nowhere, Teams just caught favour and everybody gravitated toward it instead and here we are years later and that's the clear favourite.

 

[edyvw]

Yes, they do seem to enjoy the DM'ing feature of Teams I've noticed, which also makes it super simple to do "quick meets". The fact it integrates so well with Outlook and SharePoint is also a big plus.

My point was more that Teams isn't bad software if users are choosing to utilize it on their own without a mandate. This sets it apart from the predecessor products that were always hot garbage (Skype and Lync).

There was a period there where Zoom was really popular, maybe a few months or more? and it looked like it was going to replace WebEx, and then out of nowhere, Teams just caught favour and everybody gravitated toward it instead and here we are years later and that's the clear favourite.

I still prefer Zoom. Less stuff going on.

 

[Oillover]

Yes. They really did not intend to introduce those cars. But DTM competition went off the rails, and BMW and MB got into the war. If BMW developed M3 independent of DTM it would probably be a version of 2.5 inline 6.

IIRC, C&D or R&T did a test when the e30 was still new.
They fitted a 4.10 diff (what's found on the e30 M3) to a 325i and noted comparable (if not, a little better) performance numbers than the e30 M3.

 

[chris719]

Given this thread is about BMW, did you try the i4 or iX? I got some torque steer from the front wheels pawing but it came out of the hole like an absolute bear.

I haven’t yet unfortunately.

 

[chris719]

My point was more that Teams isn't bad software if users are choosing to utilize it on their own without a mandate. This sets it apart from the predecessor products that were always hot garbage (Skype and Lync).

Depends on your user base and their standards I think. Every team I work with that has the option to use Slack will choose it over Teams. The chat client is pretty bad, and it’s terrible at handling multiple accounts. Anyone spoiled by Discord generally loathes it as well.

 

[Ws6]

I haven’t yet unfortunately.

This is a stock i4 m50

This is a stock model s plaid

Obviously the Plaid is quicker, but I chose it thinking its software and motors would be the best Tesla had (note, its a 2023).

Notice the notches at the beginning of each car's run. This is traction loss and recovery. Both cars are obviously powerful enough to spin the tires, given zero governance. I do not find Tesla's governance to appear any more advanced than BMW's. Can you provide a counterpoint with evidence?