Blackstone zddp not a true concern, misinformation

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Well, really it still had about 1/4 of what a PCMO would have. Not to discount the antiwear properties of ZDDP, but it's necessity is way overblown by a very vocal and very small minority.

This should be my signature (from the linked article):

" Don’t just buy an oil or additive, start using it, and then never stop just because the
engine is running just fine. Be objective "
 
Engine design. Some need it, others may not or may not need as much.

But the weakness in that study is that the surface chemistry that has been imparted by years of other oils being used may still be providing protection.

If it was done on two new engines, both used the same way, and over, say, 30-100k miles, it would be more compelling.

Its a fun read anyway.
 
he also says flat tappet aircraft motors dont use zddp in their oil, is that true or no?

"Is a lack of ZDDP really a problem for flat-tappet engines? My first inclination would be to say no, and that’s
because 99% of all piston aircraft engines don’t use that additive in their oil"

I understand the idea of why zddp works. Perhaps aircraft have weak valve springs? Which would be odd to say as they need to develop a lot of power and you would think they will need strong springs.
 
Oh boy, I'm not sure where to go with this one. First off, Aircraft piston oils often contain anti wear additives. As far as I know, only the "mineral" oil used for break in is additive free.

First, aircraft engines don't last long. My Lycoming made it just over 1700 hours. My 1998 Ford F150 4.6L had 5500 hours on it when I gave it to my brother, where he's put years of additional use on it. This means the Ford camshaft has outlived the Lycoming camshaft by a factor of 4. And shows no sign of letting up.

Second, I believe the aircraft engine oil's anti wear additive is TCP and BTTP. (tricresyl phosphate) and it is considered reasonably effective. HOWEVER, there are few Lycoming aircraft engines that make the 2000 hour overhaul and are able to re-use the camshaft safely for the next run. In fact, I've never seen one go 2000 hours and be in sufficient shape for re-use.

Third, aircraft camshafts fail at an alarming rate. Here's my camshaft, from my Lycoming aircraft engine with 1700 hours total time and 25 hour oil change intervals since new:

DSC00149_resize_with_arrow.jpg


Modern Lycoming aircraft engines have roller camshafts. This eliminates the camshaft wear problem.
 
Also, I wanted to note, the worn lobe operates 2 lifters. Since it's an opposed engine, it's easy to locate opposed lifters on the same lobe, for the intake valves. That lobe is wider, but it does not seem to help. (The exhaust valves have just one lifter per lobe)

While the worn lobe was a catastrophic failure, none of the other lobes are in acceptable shape. That includes the lobes that operate just one lifter.
 
Originally Posted By: sdowney717
he also says flat tappet aircraft motors dont use zddp in their oil, is that true or no?

"Is a lack of ZDDP really a problem for flat-tappet engines? My first inclination would be to say no, and that’s
because 99% of all piston aircraft engines don’t use that additive in their oil"

I understand the idea of why zddp works. Perhaps aircraft have weak valve springs? Which would be odd to say as they need to develop a lot of power and you would think they will need strong springs.


Most designed-for-Aircraft engines (Lycoming and Continental opposed air-cooled types) turn MUCH slower than automotive engines. They produce godawful amounts of torque which is why their power numbers can be high, but they don't spin so fast that valve float is really an issue, hence the springs don't need to be super-stiff. They also tend to have absolutely huge cylinder volumes compared to car engines. A Continental IO-520 is a 520 cubic inch opposed SIX CYLINDER engine... a six with more displacement than the original 488 cubic inch Viper V10. The Lycoming IO-390 is a 390 cubic inch FOUR.

I would hesitate to draw any conclusions at all about automotive oils from aircraft engines and oils. Aircraft engines really are a different breed. They operate on the same basic principles as car engines, but in a very different regime of speed, cylinder pressures, temperature ranges, bearing design, and oil chemistry for the most part.
 
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Having one worn cam lobe is akin to being a little bit pregnant...
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: sdowney717
he also says flat tappet aircraft motors dont use zddp in their oil, is that true or no?

"Is a lack of ZDDP really a problem for flat-tappet engines? My first inclination would be to say no, and that’s
because 99% of all piston aircraft engines don’t use that additive in their oil"

I understand the idea of why zddp works. Perhaps aircraft have weak valve springs? Which would be odd to say as they need to develop a lot of power and you would think they will need strong springs.


Most designed-for-Aircraft engines (Lycoming and Continental opposed air-cooled types) turn MUCH slower than automotive engines. They produce godawful amounts of torque which is why their power numbers can be high, but they don't spin so fast that valve float is really an issue, hence the springs don't need to be super-stiff. They also tend to have absolutely huge cylinder volumes compared to car engines. A Continental IO-520 is a 520 cubic inch opposed SIX CYLINDER engine... a six with more displacement than the original 488 cubic inch Viper V10. The Lycoming IO-390 is a 390 cubic inch FOUR.

I would hesitate to draw any conclusions at all about automotive oils from aircraft engines and oils. Aircraft engines really are a different breed. They operate on the same basic principles as car engines, but in a very different regime of speed, cylinder pressures, temperature ranges, bearing design, and oil chemistry for the most part.


I agree. I think if you stuck some aircraft oil in a 500hp v-8 with a flat tappet running 7,000 rpm I dont think you would make it through a OCI. A good test would be my trucks engine. It may not have the highest stock valve spring pressure and it redlines at 5,000 rpm so its not the craziest flat tappet engine but I think it needs at least a minimum amount of certain additives which is above what the plane oil has and what its intended purpose is. I also dont think a plane runs the same temp as the 195 degree t-stat in the 4.9 Obviously cause its air cooled but im sure cylinder walls and other parts are fairly cool when flying at 10,000 ft and going 150 plus. and at that moment in flight the engine is at a higher rpm and has less of a load from pulling the prop pitch back a bit.
 
so if ZDDP is better than the aircraft engine wear additives TCP and BTTP, why not have ZDDP in aircraft engine oils?

The comment was made aircraft engines wear out soon and the cams go flat. Seems like aircraft engine oils are not very good at preventing wear.
 
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Originally Posted By: sdowney717
so if ZDDP is better than the aircraft engine wear additives TCP and BTTP, why not have ZDDP in aircraft engine oils?


Aircraft engines require ashless oils. When ZDDP burns, it creates ash.
 
Originally Posted By: OldCowboy
Originally Posted By: sdowney717
so if ZDDP is better than the aircraft engine wear additives TCP and BTTP, why not have ZDDP in aircraft engine oils?


Aircraft engines require ashless oils. When ZDDP burns, it creates ash.


Exactly. Better to make it through a short time between overhauls with a lot of cam wear than to suffer rapid disassembly on impact after fouling the plugs at altitude. :-/
 
He is way off base. He starts off with his idea of a scientific experiment, but there is one huge fallacy. I would compare it to taking samples of Milk from the grocery store and scientifically searching for alcohol. He does not look for all anti-wear additives, only ZDDP. It is hard to find what you are not looking for.

ZDDP is used in automotive engines because it is effective and relatively cheap. There are variations in price due to it's evaporative properties (hence SN with the more expensive types). Aircraft engine oils, TC-W3 two cycle oils, and two cycle stationary engine oils cannot have residual ash after burning in the engine. In the case of the aircraft, you don't want fowled plugs at 10,000 ft. You can't pull over and clean them. In TC-W3, you don't want fowled plugs in the middle of the bay, or, in my case a few years ago, fighting the heavy currents of the Amazon to get back up river to your camp after dark with millions of mosquitos and thousands of bats flying at you -- it was not fun. The owner of the plane used the right oil for the plane, but not for the boat. In the case of large two cycle stationary engines, the ash builds up on the ports in the sides of the cylinders, reducing the exhaust flow. Pulling a huge engine off line to clear the ports means loss of production and a huge expense.

Each of these engines have different power and RPM requirements, but as mentioned on the forum, in the case of the Lycoming and other aircraft engines, they are low and steady RPM, without the need for high valve spring pressures (ash is used to cushion the valve seats against the spring pressures) and therefore have less pressure against the rocker arms and tappets. It has been mentioned that cams can go 2000 hours on these engines. In comparison with car engines, that is a drop in the bucket.

So a more expensive anti-wear package is used that is non-organometalic. It leaves no trace ash to be analyzed.

Before we look at his results from the Aeroshell, we should note that he was running a SM oil. Running an SM oil, known for it's lack of sludge prevention for 18 months is asking for a build up (or accumulation) of byproducts that will take a while to clean up unless you use AutoRx or something similar. As with any change in formulation, I would not be surprised by the same or higher contamination and wear metals, as it's different detergent or solvency may be dislodging old sludge (this is particularly important in the silicon result, where unless he "cleaned" his filter or put on a new one, there is no other normal explanation for the increase in silicon). I will also mention that his entire history of silicon in this engine indicates a problem with his air intake. Any decent filter in a correctly assembled and sealed air intake can easily keep silicon below 5 ppm except maybe in the first 5000 miles as it fills up and starts to clog the bigger holes). 4 to 24 ppm of silicon in 1500 to 2000 miles is way out of line.

I'll also comment on certain levels that are slightly off-topic, but bear commenting on since I've analyzed about 5000 samples in the last 10-12 years and use them for pro-active maintenance. I do not look at averages. Each engine, transmission, or whatever should be compared to it's counterpart if possible and benchmarked to the best known practices. Unless an engine oil is formulated with silicon anti-foam (some of the SN formulations), I do not let my customers get over 10 ppm in silicon. It can be avoided with good filtration. Their 31 ppm of iron as "averages" is scary. With good oil and filters, as well as certain other good practices, We can keep iron below 3 ppm per 5000 mile oil change in car, SUV and pickups. Any agricultural or construction equipment that can't do 500 hours with less than 25 ppm of iron is not being taken care of with the proper oil, filters, washes, etc. We immediately audit the maintenance and operational procedures of the customer to identify and correct the cause, whether it is mechanical or human. With these practices we see most CAT, Komatsu, and Agricultural engines passing the 25,000 hour mark without rebuilds, and the cams last at least 50,000 hours. (compare to 2000 on a Lycoming). So I have never agreed with the Blackstone averages. It is easy to be average. I took one company with 40 identical pickups and brought their "normal" iron wear from 12 ppm per 1000 km to 2 ppm per 1000 km. In my identical pickup I run 1to 2 ppm of iron per 6000 km, but then I've run the same good practices since day one (10 years and 350,000 km ago). Bottom line is I never look at Blackstone averages.

We do not know what kind of driving he does with his 100 miles a month. If it is short trips or "warmups", that will account for much of the iron. His high lead is probably corrosion of the lead from dirty oil sitting in the bearings for long periods of time, especially if he starts it occasionally to keep the battery charged or whatever. I've already proven that it is better to just let it sit. My 1988 BMW and 1960 Corvair only get 2000 to 4000 miles a year on them because I'm not always where I keep them. When I start them, I drive them 60 miles a day to work (15 miles of mountains each way, 4 times a day). If I'm not going to town, I don't start them. And I use synthetic CI-4 oil, changing once a year, no matter what, and timed to be dress before one of the periods I'll be away.

Now if we look at his analysis, we see that he was previously using a high moly content oil. As he says, about 20% of the previous oil stays and contaminates the new oil, so it is natural to see the 260 ppm of moly reduced to 59, and then to 21. The same with the other additives as they either remain on the engine to be worn off or say in the residual oil. Remembering that zinc, phosphorous, calcium, boron, and moly are polar, we can see that even in his second Aeroshell sample he still has some ZDDP and other normal additives in that oil. The Aeroshell would have zero of those elements.

So what do we see in those results? A continuing reduction of the polar additives that are still offering some protection in addition to the non-ash additives. My guess would be that if he continues the test, his wear metals will go up as the old polar additives continue to wear off.

So, bottom line on ZDDP:
I've written my main paper on the subject. I still believe it is necessary in flat tappet engines. I also believe some people take it to extremes. The levels in any oil on the market are higher than they war 50 years ago. One of the readers of my paper has offered a quart of oil from the 60's for analysis, so as soon as I see those results I'll have an idea of what was in the market (other than the theoretical that I've used to date).

I DO NOT believe in "mix-your-own" with ZDDP supplements. The damage of going over 1600 ppm is not good. The damage of going over 1800 ppm is documented by SAE studies. Why risk it when a good CI-4 is plenty and will keep the engine clean as well? Even a Synthetic CJ-4 is great. And go with the Synthetic and you are probably (I don't have the test equipment) a level of elastohydrodynamic lubrication to the mix.

Thanks for bringing this up. Although a lot of what he says has been debunked on the forum, I'll go ahead and post this there as well.

Link to the seleccion of engine oil for flat tappet engines
 
How long do you think a typical passenger car or light truck engine would last if it were operated like those in a piston aircraft?
IIRC, you have a C177?
Very nice single with good speed potential (for its power) and a roomy cabin.
You certainly run the engine at full throtle for longer than anyone would in a road vehicle, for takeoff and initial climb, and you probably cruise somewhere between 55% and 75% power, depending upon how much fuel you want to burn versus how fast you want to cruise.
My question is how long would a typical spark ingnition road engine last if it were operated as hard as a typical aircraft piston engine is?
Also, the oils used in road vehicles seem to have far more wear protection additives than those for aircraft piston engines.
I saw some Aeroshell on CL for a low price and thought it might be fun to try in the BMW.
I checked out the PDS, and it was almost as though the oil had no additive package at all.
Also, IIRC, engines with oil filters call for 100 hour drains, which given the average speed at which the aricraft will operate would equate to a pretty decent road mileage.
I think it may be a matter of aircraft engines seeing harder typical use than road engines that makes them seem less durable, as well as the oils used, and the ambient temperature range encountered on a typical cross-country flight, combined with the disadvantages of air cooling.
OTOH, if something really bad happens to the engine in your car, you can always get a good used engine for cheap or a crate motor for $3-4K.
That certainly isn't the case with a Continental or Lycoming.
 
By FAA regulation, Continental and Lycoming aircraft engines are stuck in the 1940's. It costs too much to flight-certify new engine components for the manufacturer's to redesign the engines, or even to change manufacturing processes. ZDDP is frowned upon because of the fear of plug fouling due to high oil consumption, and magneto unreliability. Manufacturers can't redesign the engines to lower oil consumption because that would require prohibitively expensive certification testing. 70% of the engines that they sell are reman's of old engines, so the economics just aren't there.
 
Originally Posted By: widman
I DO NOT believe in "mix-your-own" with ZDDP supplements. The damage of going over 1600 ppm is not good. The damage of going over 1800 ppm is documented by SAE studies. Why risk it when a good CI-4 is plenty and will keep the engine clean as well? Even a Synthetic CJ-4 is great. And go with the Synthetic and you are probably (I don't have the test equipment) a level of elastohydrodynamic lubrication to the mix.


Good post, Richard. Even up here, it's not that hard to get a few CI-4 examples, or Valvoline VR1, and Defy is all over the place. I've used the odd ZDDP additive (that will bring to a known, reasonable level), but it's certainly not my preference.

And you're definitely right about ZDDP levels in older oils. They're not what we remember through our rose-tinted memories. I believe Popular Mechanics listed of some ZDDP contents over the various decades in an article some months back.
 
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