I'm guessing that that is the case with my car. I'm hoping the FP cures that. My car has no EGR valve. The timing is spot on and no vacuum leaks.
bias against American cars
- Thread starter Stab
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The is a "halo" effect. If a person like the car and the treatment that they get after they buy it, problems are easier forgotten.
The way a dealer handles problems makes a big difference in the customers "perception" of quality.
I had a 91 Honda Accord that had clear coat problems. The top and hood started to lose their gloss in spots. While the paint was still good enough that you couldnt see the problem from 20 feet away, Honda repainted the car with absolutly no hassle. The repaint still looked ghreat years later when we got rid of the car.
Friends with GM products with clear coat problems about the same time are still ****** at
GM 12 years later over the shabby treatment that GM gave them.
My wifes Acura got a slight shudder when the TC clutch locked up at about 80,000 miles. Acura replaced the tranmission, no hassle. What's the odds of GM doing that?
I've long thought that to be the case.
Last year, the local Ford dealer outright refused to perform warranty work on my car. I had to go to ANOTHER Ford dealer for it. (It was a service campaign for replacement of underhood wiring harnesses).
Back in 97 or so, they (local Ford dealer) were doing warranty work that I hadn't even asked for, or noticed that there was a problem.
No idea what changed, other than that Ford cut back on warranty labor times.
Now I won't use the dealer for anything.
I would like to read some of those studies. My parents had a Nova that provided good service to them. Can you provide references please?
Try a library and look for Consumers Reports annual editions from that era.
I remember seeing the reports and the differences.
The reason was obvious at the time. It was how the dealers handled their customers and how the companies backed up their warranty.
I looked currently at consumer reports and the same vintage Chevy/Geo Prizm and Toyota Corolla have similar reliability ratings and both are recommended used cars. They even state the fact and that Prizm is less money in the used car arena.
Could account for the differences between the rankings consumer reports gave the Ford Taurus and the Mercury Sable.
Mercury dealers are reportedly better than Ford dealers for customer service.
Although I called the local Mercury dealer and they actually called the local Ford dealer and fed me the same line of BS "No this is not covered under the service campaign". At that point I decided to use a Ford dealer good and far away, to avoid what is obviously a "good 'ole boy" network between the dealerships around here.
Mercury dealers are reportedly better than Ford dealers for customer service.
Although I called the local Mercury dealer and they actually called the local Ford dealer and fed me the same line of BS "No this is not covered under the service campaign". At that point I decided to use a Ford dealer good and far away, to avoid what is obviously a "good 'ole boy" network between the dealerships around here.
Kestas
Staff member
I remember reading this in one of the Automotive Engineering type journals back in the mid-80s.
Kestas
Staff member
I'm surprised nobody brought out the story of the Chevy Nova and Toyota Corolla built in Freemont, CA by NUMMI (New United Manufacturing Motor, Inc). This was a Chevy and Toyota that were virtually identical, except for the nameplate, built by the same people on the same line, just sold at different dealerships. The Corolla sold for $2000 more than its Nova twin. Studies revealed the Corolla got considerbly higher marks in reliability and owner satisfaction than Nova owners! The only variable in this study was the nameplate. The only conclusion one could get from this study is that peoples' perceptions are measurably biased in favor of imports when it comes to reporting reliability.
Well, maybe the people building them saw that one was supposed to be a Toyota and worked harder on it, while the other's "just a Chevy Nova."
I remember the Toyota commercials that ridiculed Chevy's claim that the Corolla and Nova were the same. Basically the voice over said, "yeah, they are the same if you don't include..." and all kinds of parts that Chevy left off the Nova did started piling up next to it. I remember wondering how many $$ did Chevy save leaving out stuff like sway bars and tilt steering.
I think NUMMI cranks out the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe today. It will be interesting to compare the ratings between these two now.
Exactly! Who makes diesel 3/4 and 1 ton trucks? Honda and Toyota sure don't. Heck, they barely know what torque is.quote:
Originally posted by Chris B.:
I love my Chevy! My stock 5.3 will put 2 truck lengths on a stock Tundra 0-60mph. GM/Ford/Dodge engines just have more power then their Japanese compition. I'll only buy American as I feel you do get more bang for the buck even at the same price pluse you help support American workers and more of your money stays in the states. USA all the way!
I've tried a lot of auto brands, but I always end up back with a Ford. I am happiest with them.
I can't stand why people ask me why I keep buying American. I drive my stuff very, very hard and just do regular maintenance. I haven't had any freakish problems yet. **** , my 2001 F350 has 101,000 miles, most of which have been with a 75hp chip. I just got a new 140+rwhp chip and am looking for another trouble free 101,000 miles out of it.
[ May 28, 2004, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Intelman34 ]
Hmmmm. Sounds like a personal preference thing to me. You are correct that there are no diesels in the Toyota line. On the other hand, I do wonder a bit about the dude ranch cowboys I see running around in spotless clean F-250 "Powerstrokes" that don't even have a hitch on the back. . .quote:
Originally posted by Intelman34:
Exactly! Who makes diesel 3/4 and 1 ton trucks? Honda and Toyota sure don't. Heck, they barely know what torque is.quote:
Originally posted by Chris B.:
I love my Chevy! My stock 5.3 will put 2 truck lengths on a stock Tundra 0-60mph. GM/Ford/Dodge engines just have more power then their Japanese compition. I'll only buy American as I feel you do get more bang for the buck even at the same price pluse you help support American workers and more of your money stays in the states. USA all the way!
I've tried a lot of auto brands, but I always end up back with a Ford. I am happiest with them.
I can't stand why people ask me why I keep buying American. I drive my stuff very, very hard and just do regular maintenance. I haven't had any freakish problems yet. **** , my 2001 F350 has 101,000 miles, most of which have been with a 75hp chip. I just got a new 140+rwhp chip and am looking for another trouble free 101,000 miles out of it.
Torque? Toyota's new 3.3L V-6 Camry engine puts out more torque than GM's 3.8L V-6 (240 vs. 230) and it does so at far lower RPM (3600 vs. 4000). So in the car arena, it's not Toyota that needs to do its torque homework. BTW, the older 3.0L V-6 produces only 10 ft-lb less tq from almost 40 cu in less displacement.
The 4.7L V-8 in my wife's Sequoia is a far smoother, quieter engine than any of the 4.8/5.3/6.0/8.0 GM V-8s, and I don't think anyone has ever heard any piston slap from their 4.7s. And guess what, we don't own the Sequoia to race with you in your Chevy truck. Our Seq is better built, smoother running, and worth a good bit more at trade in time than a Tahoe or Suburban. If you like your Ford or Chevy, that's fine, keep it, but please don't be telling me that my Toyota isn't worth the money -- it is.
I've owned four GM products over the last 20 years. Sadly, they've all been problem cars. My first 1998 Regal GS was so bad that the dealer actually took it back and gave me another one (after 10,000 miles). No lemon law or anything. The second wasn't much better, and I traded it in disgust 2.5 years later. I absolutely refuse to put myself in that position ever again.
In fairness, our 1990 Mercury Sable wagon (Taurus twin), the Sequoia's predecessor, was a fine and trouble free car for us for 10 years, but it still wasn't up to Toyota quality standards either.
This thread is proof of what I said at the beginning. Most people believe what they want to.
Me? I look at what works or has worked for me and members of my family. Got a hand-me-down ’76 Caprice Classic as my first car. Thing was a tank that soaked up abuse like a sponge. Replaced it with a ’86 Ford Escort GT. Car was barely OK … but had lots of little problems and went to the dealership for a significant repair every year. The dealership treated me poorly each time. Replaced that with a ’90 Integra. Car had a few noises but was 100% reliable. In the 5 years I had it, replaced only a one piece of the exhaust ... and a set of rear brake pads. Replaced that machine with the aforementioned ’95 Civic (made in Canada). Super car despite the low price.
When I was car shopping in 2003, I was sorely tempted to buy a Ford Focus. The car was economical to purchase and got rave reviews for it’s tossable handling … and that REALLY appealed to me. Plus, I was a Colin McRae fan in WRC and he drove a (slightly modified
) Ford Focus at the time. But, the memory of Fords past and the fact that the thing was a non-turbo 4-cylinder car with a 6spd which got only 25mpg highway completely turned me off!
… as did one study which proclaimed it the most recalled car in 2002. Now I have friends who own two of these cars and one keeps overheating. Fan isn’t coming on like it’s supposed to.
Happy I got my ’03 Nissan Sentra SpecV instead … even if they aren’t quite as solid as previous Sentras. Probably replace it with a Honda or Acura in a few years. I guess we’ll see.
My sister-in-law has had one American car after another. A bunch of Grand Ams were the first. I remember one bitterly cold night, she was staying over and when the temp hit –10F the horn started blowing for no reason.
Brother had to throw on some clothes, run outside and disconnect the battery to shut the thing up. That’s the kind of quality design I trying to avoid. She replaced that with a used, but late model Jeep Cherokee … which was a piece of junk. They kept that 1 year before they’d had enough of it. She had a new Oldsmobile after that. Good lookin’ car, don’t know if it had problems or not. Then she got a Chrysler … Intrepid maybe? Another problem child which needed numerous trips to the dealership in just a few years. Lastly, she got the noisy Trailblazer which has never been right.
I just don’t want the hassle of dealing with a car which isn’t designed to last and may not be put together particularly well. Then taking it to a dealership which is tired of customer complaints … because they get so many, all the time.
I keep my cars a fair number of years then sell them to friends and family. I don’t want to sell someone something that’s going to be nothing but problems.
As for “buying American” (as in domestic content) that isn’t the same as it used to be. Plenty of non-American nameplates are made in the US … and plenty of “American” cars are assembled outside the United States. Plus, there is more mixed nationalities in components these days. My Dad’s Mercury Grand Marquis is full of foreign parts.
You guys raving about your massive Ford, Chevy and Dodge pickups better watch out. The Japanese are getting wise to the bigger-is-better American mindset and are tailoring their offerings accordingly. Look how far they’ve come in the past 10 years.
--- Bror Jace
Me? I look at what works or has worked for me and members of my family. Got a hand-me-down ’76 Caprice Classic as my first car. Thing was a tank that soaked up abuse like a sponge. Replaced it with a ’86 Ford Escort GT. Car was barely OK … but had lots of little problems and went to the dealership for a significant repair every year. The dealership treated me poorly each time. Replaced that with a ’90 Integra. Car had a few noises but was 100% reliable. In the 5 years I had it, replaced only a one piece of the exhaust ... and a set of rear brake pads. Replaced that machine with the aforementioned ’95 Civic (made in Canada). Super car despite the low price.
When I was car shopping in 2003, I was sorely tempted to buy a Ford Focus. The car was economical to purchase and got rave reviews for it’s tossable handling … and that REALLY appealed to me. Plus, I was a Colin McRae fan in WRC and he drove a (slightly modified
Happy I got my ’03 Nissan Sentra SpecV instead … even if they aren’t quite as solid as previous Sentras. Probably replace it with a Honda or Acura in a few years. I guess we’ll see.
My sister-in-law has had one American car after another. A bunch of Grand Ams were the first. I remember one bitterly cold night, she was staying over and when the temp hit –10F the horn started blowing for no reason.
I just don’t want the hassle of dealing with a car which isn’t designed to last and may not be put together particularly well. Then taking it to a dealership which is tired of customer complaints … because they get so many, all the time.
I keep my cars a fair number of years then sell them to friends and family. I don’t want to sell someone something that’s going to be nothing but problems.
As for “buying American” (as in domestic content) that isn’t the same as it used to be. Plenty of non-American nameplates are made in the US … and plenty of “American” cars are assembled outside the United States. Plus, there is more mixed nationalities in components these days. My Dad’s Mercury Grand Marquis is full of foreign parts.
You guys raving about your massive Ford, Chevy and Dodge pickups better watch out. The Japanese are getting wise to the bigger-is-better American mindset and are tailoring their offerings accordingly. Look how far they’ve come in the past 10 years.
--- Bror Jace
I was posted on here just a little while ago that GM only recently started to push their product durability testing past the warrently period. And, GM seems to be the best for reliablility in American autos. I wouldn't keep a chrysler product if someone gave it to me, especially the Jeep. Futhermroe, take a look at the interior of a GM vehicle and compare it with any foreign made vehicle. The quality of the materials is downright horrible. The previous comments about the Escalade aren't too correct in my eyes either. From my experiance Cadillacs drop in value faster than Yugos.
Lessee here..Tarted up Chevy Tahoe vs Toyota Sequoia at about the same price. It all depends on whether you think a Chevy Tahoe with a bunch of fru-fru added is better than a Sequoia. The Tahoe and Sequoia both good vehicles, it's easy to see how a person could pick either one if they wanted an SUV.
Maybe the buying public isn't as dumb as GM thinks it is. That could be the reason that the Pimpmobile, er Cadillac, gets outsold by the Chevy. Why pay a bunch extra to get a Cadillac label on a Chevy.
I do have to give GM credit for their marketing though, they are selling Tahoes at a premium while leaving them in their packing crates (the H2). Maybe the buying public is as dumb as GM thinks they are
Kestas
Staff member
I checked my files -- to my surprise I kept a copy of the article! So I can reference it exactly.
From the U.S. News & World Report, May 5, 1986, p.36:
" Will somebody buy this car?
But for a few differences in trim, the Chevrolet Nova and Toyota Corolla are twins. Consumer Reports says Nova, made jointly by GM and Toyota in California, is equal in quality to the Japanese-built Corolla. An option-loaded Nova sells for about $2000 less than the comparable Corolla, and GM offers 7.9 percent loans, too. Yet GM sits on a huge, 135-day inventory of unsold Novas while Toyota dealers can't keep Corollas in stock. Corolla sales out-paced the Nova by 3 to 1 in the last half of 1985.
Analysts say GM erred in stressing Nova's Japanese heritage, making some dealers reluctant to push the Nova over U.S.-made Chevys. Says Ted Sullivan of Chase Econometrics: "Aren't you cutting your throat later if you convince customers of the advantages of buying a 'Japanese' car?"
GM ads now say of Nova, "It's a lot more than you expect for the price." Low-interest loans are likely to stay. Also, GM may let Toyota sell the excess Novas as Corollas.
With joint-venture cars of their own due in the next few years, Ford and Chrysler are watching GM wrestle with its Nova problem. All might steal a page from Japan's Honda, which never mentions the Ohio origins of its Accord sedan -- and doesn't plan to."
There were other articles on this very subject at the time, and I wouldn't be surprised if this topic is in some marketing textbook used in business colleges.
Stab:
You need to get your facts straight. Our Sequoia is an SR-5 4x2, and I got it new (in 2001) for very low in the 30s. It did NOT cost 48k, in any way, shape, or form. Comparing it to an Escalade is a charade.
I've owned both recent GM and Toyota products, have you??? I'm sorry, but the build quality of the Toyota leaves the GM cars in the dust. No, of course the Toyotas are not perfect, but they're a lot closer to perfection than my GM cars were.
Obviously, you don't care for my perspective on this, and that's fine, but don't try to minimize my personal experience by suggesting that I'm overstating the problems with my Buicks. They were better than the 1980s Pontiacs I tried before, but the plain fact remains, the dealer actually took the first Buick back. Think about that. If you'd like to read a five page post, we can start getting to the specifics if you'd like.
Look, if you want to buy American, please do so, but don't try to make yourself feel better about your choices by unilaterally declaring that American made cars are "better" than Japanese cars. By every objective measure I can see, they're just not. Maybe for you, but not for me.
And yes, I'll keep my $32k Sequoia and $25k V-6 Camry, and will do so very happily. Both stand head and shoulders above any GM, Ford, or Chrysler product I've ever owned.
You need to get your facts straight. Our Sequoia is an SR-5 4x2, and I got it new (in 2001) for very low in the 30s. It did NOT cost 48k, in any way, shape, or form. Comparing it to an Escalade is a charade.
I've owned both recent GM and Toyota products, have you??? I'm sorry, but the build quality of the Toyota leaves the GM cars in the dust. No, of course the Toyotas are not perfect, but they're a lot closer to perfection than my GM cars were.
Obviously, you don't care for my perspective on this, and that's fine, but don't try to minimize my personal experience by suggesting that I'm overstating the problems with my Buicks. They were better than the 1980s Pontiacs I tried before, but the plain fact remains, the dealer actually took the first Buick back. Think about that. If you'd like to read a five page post, we can start getting to the specifics if you'd like.
Look, if you want to buy American, please do so, but don't try to make yourself feel better about your choices by unilaterally declaring that American made cars are "better" than Japanese cars. By every objective measure I can see, they're just not. Maybe for you, but not for me.
And yes, I'll keep my $32k Sequoia and $25k V-6 Camry, and will do so very happily. Both stand head and shoulders above any GM, Ford, or Chrysler product I've ever owned.
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