bias against American cars

[ekpolk]

Oh one other thing. It's anecdotal, but worth considering. The network guy at my last civilian job (before I got recalled) had himself an Escapade. He dumped it after about nine months, since it was in the shop half the time. Our three year old Sequoia simply hasn't had anything go wrong with it yet.

 

[darryld13]

quote:

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Originally posted by andyfish:

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Thanks for providing the neatly summarized results of 675,000 polled! They all may have started out pretty even, but the gap in later years is significant. Once Mr. Lutz can show that the typical trend for 5 year old Malibus et al is below the average for problems reported, I will gladly drop $$ on his products.

[ May 28, 2004, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: darryld13 ]

 

[Intelman34]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ekpolk:
Hmmmm. Sounds like a personal preference thing to me. You are correct that there are no diesels in the Toyota line. On the other hand, I do wonder a bit about the dude ranch cowboys I see running around in spotless clean F-250 "Powerstrokes" that don't even have a hitch on the back. . .
[/QB]

---

How is it a personal preference thing if Toyota don't have a diesel to offer me? I had a Dodge with the Cummins before this truck. I need a truck that works with me. A tiny Tundra with a cute little V8 can't do that. If there are people who just want a big truck to have a big truck, who cares? It's their truck.

The 4.7L V8 is a nice little motor, but you cant compare it with the big V8 truck motors such as the 6.0 or 8.1 Chevy. Sure it may be smoother, but that is about it.

Buy what fits you best.

 

[lakeman]

I can't stand it..I've got to get my 2 cents in. This thing about which is better is like a Southerner trying to explain to a Yankee why we feel the way we do about the South and the "War Of Northern Aggression"; if your not from the South you'll never understand. Much the same about cars, I will never own a foreign car, no matter what. And yes, I know most of them are built here but, the money still goes over seas.And yes, they do seem to have fewer problems but, it will cost you a lot more to have one repaired when they do break. And how many 10 year old Toyotas do you see on the road, Not Many! there are tons of old Fords, Mopars, etc still running and the parts are cheap.

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by lakeman:
I can't stand it..I've got to get my 2 cents in. This thing about which is better is like a Southerner trying to explain to a Yankee why we feel the way we do about the South and the "War Of Northern Aggression"; if your not from the South you'll never understand. Much the same about cars,

---

You analogy is a bit weak. Most of the people posting here who prefer Japanese cars to American cars have experiance with American cars. In many cases, more experiance than we wanted.

That is completely unlike any lack of understanding of why y'all don't just get over it.

 

[Stab]

Most people that own jap cars also go OVERBOARD when touting the perceived qualities of buying a overpriced econo car.

Usually they brag about reliability to justify the higher cost.

Then they say all the American cars they have had were "junk". Once again to justify the higher cost.

Then they go to "quality" which means nothing because quality is in the eye of the beholder. Once again to justify spending thousands more for a econo car.

The common theme here is justification.

It really just reminds me a little kid shouting "it's better, it really really is".

I have been in the used car business for years and the new car business before that so I can assure you guys that have told me to check my facts that I don't need to. I live in the car world everyday and sit in and drive more cars in one week than most people on this board will sit in in a lifetime.

Japanese cars are NOT any better in the long run than any other similar car.

They are probably much less durable when the odo goes over 200K miles in my expierence.

So lets get back to the justification.

I got it down pat I think:
reliability
American cars are junk
"quality"

Can none of you guys come up with anything solid?

If not stay with the three standby excuses listed above.

 

[cousincletus]

quote:

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Originally posted by XS650:

quote:

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Originally posted by lakeman:
I can't stand it..I've got to get my 2 cents in. This thing about which is better is like a Southerner trying to explain to a Yankee why we feel the way we do about the South and the "War Of Northern Aggression"; if your not from the South you'll never understand. Much the same about cars,

---

You analogy is a bit weak. Most of the people posting here who prefer Japanese cars to American cars have experiance with American cars. In many cases, more experiance than we wanted.

That is completely unlike any lack of understanding of why y'all don't just get over it.

---

The reason why I buy American is I get a good product for lots less , parts are more available and cheaper, and most of all I am concerned about keeping jobs in this country. Some people just don't care about anyone else but themselves and could care less if their neighbor lost his or her job. You'll never, ever see an import in my driveway.

 

[darryld13]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stab:
Compare to the Escalade so we are in the same price range. Your SUV will pale in comparison.

SNIP

Sequoia limited 4x4 msrp 47,470 per toyota.com NO REBATES

Cadillac Escalade MSRP 53,385- 2500 rebates=50,885

The real price difference is about 3500 bucks.
If you are a current GM owner the price is almost exactly the same. [/QB]

---

Edmunds True Market Value (TMV) analysis of prices consumers paid for vehicles:

2004 Cadillac Escalade AWD 6.0L 8cyl 4A
Base MSRP = $55,110
Invoice = $50,426
TMV = $51,801
Dest. Charge = $850
Rebates = -$1,000
Cash Adjusted TMV customer price = $51,376

2004 Toyota Sequoia Limited 4WD 4.7L 8cyl 4A
Base MSRP = $44,220
Invoice = $39,134
TMV = $39,929
Options = $837
(Curtain + Side Air Bags, 6 CD AM/FM, Rear Seat audio)
Dest. Charge = $540
Rebates = 0
Cash Adjusted TMV customer price = $41,469

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by XS650:

Most of the people posting here who prefer Japanese cars to American cars have experiance with American cars. In many cases, more experiance than we wanted.

---

Yea man, I once had a 1986 Dodge Omni. I bought it used for $800 and it only lasted me a year. What a piece of crap it was and it was an ugly car to boot. It left me stranded more than a couple of times.

In fact, because of that piece of crap, I'm never gonna buy another American car ever again.

Err...waitaminute...

 

[ekpolk]

Stab:

You're the one who asked the question, not me. This is "your" thread. If you didn't want to hear the facts and the truth spoken, you shouldn't have opened the door.

Look at the graph a few posts ago. It reflects reality. Can't come up with anything solid? How about a car that, other than for routine service and a set of new tires, hasn't had a single solitary malfunction in three years. You show me a Chevy that can do that. Our Mercury wagon certainly didn't. You want solid "like a rock," you'll actually find it in a Sequoia. Have you ever actually been in one?

You don't think they last a long time? There's are several members here who have multi-hundred thousand mile Toyotas. If that's not enough, check out ToyotaNation.com and Camryman.com. There you will a flock of Toyota owners with many hundreds of thousands on their clocks.

My experience is what it is. You may not like that, but the facts remain. All five domestics = trouble on a regular basis. My Toyotas and Honda = I'm not sure what trouble with a car is.

You're the one who's just saying it's so, not me. I've got experience with both domestics and imports to back up my conclusions. but you go ahead and feel what you want. Maybe, someday in the distant future, when my Sequoia actually has a malfunction, I'll consider something else.

Again, you asked the question, not me. If you didn't want to hear that some folks have been sufficiently burned by lesser quality domestic cars that they're not coming back, you shouldn't have asked. By all means, spend your money however you prefer. What did you expect, you explain your perfectly correct perspective and all of us who prefer Toyotas will just say, "gosh, you're right, where can I get my Chevy?"

Cousincletis: I hear where you're coming from. On the other hand, I've spent the last 24 years (12 reserve, 12 active duty) serving as a United States Marine. I'm proud of that and proud of my country. I look around at my fellow Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen, and I can see that most of us have done more for this country than any civilian will ever dream of doing. I feel no obligation to prove that I'm a good American by buying a lower quality, US built car. When Fords and Chevys really are as good as Toyotas and Hondas, you'll see me buying Fords and Chevys, but not before.

Edited for typo.

[ May 28, 2004, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]

 

[brianl703]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ekpolk:
Torque? Toyota's new 3.3L V-6 Camry engine puts out more torque than GM's 3.8L V-6 (240 vs. 230) and it does so at far lower RPM (3600 vs. 4000). So in the car arena, it's not Toyota that needs to do its torque homework. BTW, the older 3.0L V-6 produces only 10 ft-lb less tq from almost 40 cu in less displacement.

---

GM? Who cares about GM?

The older 3.0L V6, as found in the 2002 Toyota Camry:

Performance
Base Number of Cylinders: 6 Base Engine Size: 3 liters
Base Engine Type: V6 Horsepower: 192 hp
Max Horsepower: 5300 rpm Torque: 209 ft-lbs.
Max Torque: 4400 rpm

Ford's Duratec 3.0L V6, as found in the 2002 Ford Escape:

Base Number of Cylinders: 6 Base Engine Size: 3 liters
Base Engine Type: V6 Horsepower: 201 hp
Max Horsepower: 5900 rpm Torque: 196 ft-lbs.
Max Torque: 4700 rpm

Ford's Duratec 3.0L V6, as found in the 2002 Ford Taurus:

Base Number of Cylinders: 6 Base Engine Size: 3 liters
Base Engine Type: V6 Horsepower: 200 hp
Max Horsepower: 5650 rpm Torque: 200 ft-lbs.
Max Torque: 4400 rpm

All figures from Edmunds.com

Unfortunately Ford's new 3.4L V6 engine is not out yet, but it will be interesting to see how those specifications compare when it does come out.

 

[darryld13]

quote:

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Originally posted by Stab:
Can none of you guys come up with anything solid?

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Chrysler execs of past called it like they saw it (USA Today)

It's understandable that Chrysler would have a tough time convincing buyers that it makes good cars, trucks and vans. For more than a decade, Chrysler's own executives haven't been entirely convinced.

• February 1990. Chrysler's then-CEO, Lee Iacocca, tells Fortune magazine's Alex Taylor III: "From 1980 to 1985, the products we were shipping weren't as good as they should have been. I'm not saying we were shipping crap, but little by little we began to lose our position. ... Did we earn that problem? You're ****ed right we did. And the Japanese earned their right to say they built better-quality cars because they concentrated on quality and they concentrated on fuel economy. "

• January 1991. Iacocca poses for Playboy — the interview, not the centerfold. Those who buy Playboy for the articles got this nugget: "We shipped a lot of crap in 1980; by 1985, it was much better."

• January 1992. Newsweek magazine writers Larry Reibstein and Frank Washington quote Iacocca saying the company was trying to reconcile with "the old Chrysler guy who, for good reason, departed — maybe we shipped him some crap ."

Others thought so. The same article had this: " 'GM and Ford are still awesome companies,' says Ralph Colello, an Arthur D. Little Co. consultant. 'But I'm not really sure Chrysler has a right to survive.' "

• July 1995. Chrysler Times, an internal publication, quotes then-president Robert Lutz: " Out of 100 vehicles, we're apt to build 10 that are as good as any that Toyota has ever built, 80 that are OK and 10 that cause repeated problems for our customers." The answer, Lutz said: "We've got to improve the customer service process."

Edited for bolding - I think Mr. Iacocca and Mr. Lutz are veteran car guys with a solid track record, but I think I'll wait a bit before buying a car on their say so. I actually really respect the job they did at Chrysler - I was a huge Mopar fan - but ultimately they gave too many sales pitches about how their quality had improved that didn't pan out.

[ May 28, 2004, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: darryld13 ]

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:
Our Mercury wagon certainly didn't.

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If you'd have had to put a new transmission in it, you'd really be bitching about it.

In fact I'm surprised it went 10 years without a transmission overhaul, because those Sables and Tauruses are notorious for transmission problems (always the same cause--the aluminum forward cylinder cracks).

 

[ekpolk]

Brian:

I kept that Sable trans alive by doing T-Tech flushes on it almost every year. But maybe I was just lucky.

Your stats are good, except that almost two years ago, the "old" Camry 3.0L got variable valve timing and went up from 192 hp to 210, and torque rose from 209 to 220 (the Sienna/Highlander version got 220 hp from a less restrictive exhaust).

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

---

Originally posted by darryld13:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stab:
Compare to the Escalade so we are in the same price range. Your SUV will pale in comparison.

SNIP

Sequoia limited 4x4 msrp 47,470 per toyota.com NO REBATES

Cadillac Escalade MSRP 53,385- 2500 rebates=50,885

The real price difference is about 3500 bucks.
If you are a current GM owner the price is almost exactly the same.

---

Edmunds True Market Value (TMV) analysis of prices consumers paid for vehicles:

2004 Cadillac Escalade AWD 6.0L 8cyl 4A
Base MSRP = $55,110
Invoice = $50,426
TMV = $51,801
Dest. Charge = $850
Rebates = -$1,000
Cash Adjusted TMV customer price = $51,376

2004 Toyota Sequoia Limited 4WD 4.7L 8cyl 4A
Base MSRP = $44,220
Invoice = $39,134
TMV = $39,929
Options = $837
(Curtain + Side Air Bags, 6 CD AM/FM, Rear Seat audio)
Dest. Charge = $540
Rebates = 0
Cash Adjusted TMV customer price = $41,469 [/QB]

---

With all due respect to Stab, now let's see Escalade vs. SR-5 Sequoia, so we can see the argument for what it really is. The SR-5 is a very decently equipped vehicle, it just lacks the 15k worth of frou-frou that adorns the "Limited" version. We couldn't be happier with our SR-5 tree.

EDIT: OK, I admit, we're not really pleased with gas mileage, with fuel costs what they are today. At least this vehicle only logs 9-10k miles per year. Of course, we'd be just as bad off in an Escapade, Tahoe, or Suburban.

[ May 28, 2004, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]

 

[brianl703]

quote:

---

Originally posted by moribundman:

The Ford Mondeo had been out for a few years before production for the US market began. Wherever the car was designed, it surely was first of all designed for the European market. Ford also wanted the Mondeo to become a world car. Unfortunately, the marketed it as the replacement for the decrepit Tempo, which must have been one of Ford's worst cars.

---

The Ford Mondeo/Ford Contour incorporated components that were already in use on some Ford vehicles and that within a few years would be found on the majority of Ford vehicles.

I own a Ford Contour and I know what's under the hood.

The fact that the Ford Contour may be considered a reliable car has *NOTHING* to do with it having been designed for the European market, and *EVERYTHING* to do with the fact that Ford used a lot of new and improved components and technologies in it's design.

Same reason the 1991 and newer Ford Escorts are such reliable cars. Is it because, as some think, that they are merely rebadged Mazdas? Not really--there are a lot of Ford parts in those Escorts. Pretty much everything except the transmission and the chassis (as well as chassis-specific components like brake calipers and the steering rack, etc) is a Ford design.

Why then? I think it it is because in 1991 Ford did a complete redesign of the Ford Escort, eliminating such problematic crap as TFI-IV ignition modules. That TFI-IV debacle probably did more to damage Ford's reputation than anything else, and it was such a simple thing to fix PERMANENTLY. All they had to was to make a $50 kit for each vehicle model to relocate the TFI-IV off the distributor onto a good heatsink, and that would be the end of the problem.

They never did it. I'll never know why except that perhaps their lawyers advised them that creating such a kit would be tantamount to admitting that there IS a problem with the TFI-IV module.

 

[darryld13]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ekpolk:
With all due respect to Stab, now let's see Escalade vs. SR-5 Sequoia, so we can see the argument for what it really is. The SR-5 is a very decently equipped vehicle, it just lacks the 15k worth of frou-frou that adorns the "Limited" version. We couldn't be happier with our SR-5 tree.

---

Actually, the Cadillac marketing types should be alarmed that any Toyota is being legitimately compared to a Caddy offering as apples to apples. Usually Toyotas and Chevys go head to head. I've not shopped in the SUV arena, but I would have thought that a Lexus would have been the Caddy competitor. GM has a marketing nightmare on their hands if Cadillac, their standard of excellence, is truly perceived to be nearer par to Toyota rather than Lexus.

[ May 28, 2004, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: darryld13 ]

 

[brianl703]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ekpolk:
I kept that Sable trans alive by doing T-Tech flushes on it almost every year. But maybe I was just lucky.

---

Hmm. Very interesting. I know that Toyota transmissions usually have a drain plug. My mechanic says that when he does oil changes on those he also drains the transmission fluid and refills it. I wonder if the typical Toyota dealer does the same?

My brother has a Ford Escape. It's transmission has a drain plug. I have advised him that it would be worthwhile to drain the transmission fluid at each oil change and refill it.

Although you cannot get all of the fluid out, if you are draining and refilling 4 quarts every 5000 miles or so, that would definitely help keep the fluid in the transmission fresh.

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ekpolk:
With all due respect to Stab, now let's see Escalade vs. SR-5 Sequoia, so we can see the argument for what it really is. The SR-5 is a very decently equipped vehicle, it just lacks the 15k worth of frou-frou that adorns the "Limited" version. We couldn't be happier with our SR-5 tree.

---

At that point, you might as well compare the SR-5 with a Chebby Tahoe. Both good vehicles, although I have more faith in Toyota's quality and reliability,

We are fortunate to have so many good vehicles to choose from these days.

 

[Bror Jace]

Stab, my frustration with this topic mirrors that of ekpolk. What did you expect to get from those of us who have had our fill of so-called American cars?

Each time we make a reference to past experiences you simply ignore it.

Was it all in my head when I went to make a left hand turn with my 2-year-old Ford Escort GT and the directional stalk snapped off and ended up on the floor?

That kind of thing never happened in the 12 years I drove Honda products. Neither did the rear wheel bearings go (same '86 Escort GT), nor did the alternator fail (same car) nor did the car begin stalling out in traffic for no reason (same car). Lists of little problems showing the car was not well designed could go on and on. When I used to jack up one corner, the other three would stay firmly on the ground ... yes, the chassis flexed THAT MUCH!!

This is the kind of evidence you are going to get from us. Yet, you just toss it all aside describing it as meaningless. OK, but what did you expect when you started this thread?

Oh, and about the Escalade vs. Toyota SUVs, I hope you are not trying to pass off "bling-bling" as actual quality.

I strongly suspect that's the case.

I wish all the new Cadillacs were well made ... but Consumer Reports continues to rate them all as having poor reliablity records ... and their recommendation (on reliability) closely matches my experiences.

Not that I'm buying a vehicle in that class, but It'd be nice to have the option of buying a high quality American nameplate if I were.

--- Bror Jace

PS - And I was in the car business years ago, too. Again, all the used cars I experienced and sold merely bolstered my perception of build quality. I test drove a customer's Mercury Cougar XR-7 in beautiful condition with less than 50,000 miles on it. What a hunk of junk! Every expansion joint I hit made me think parts were going to shake loose and fall off the car. It rattled that much.