Correcting the real problems? That sounds far too easy...
bias against American cars
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I personally like Japanese cars better than anything else, but to consistently believe that all American cars are inferior is probably not a good approach. Yes, my '95 Subaru Impreza is serving a lot more reliably than my girlfriend's some-what problem-plagued '96 Chevy Corsica. I even have + 40,000 miles more than her car. On the other hand, the Corsica has been totalled TWICE after a frontal collision and after being rear ended. Still running, though no air bag. Do I think my Impreza would be still in service after that? Probably not. So, in the future, if circumstances and money can allow for it, I'll have one Japanese car and one American car. I will aim to get a Japanese car that was built in Japan and the American car built in the USA. That way, I am loyal to both my nations. Haha!
I think most of the perception problem is with car magazines. For example, how many bad reports have you read about the Chevy Cavalier? I can't think of anything good that I have read about it, but I have owned three of them over the last 20 years because they are so reliable. The only major problem I ever had with a Cavalier was a head gasket started leaking (external) and that cost 400 bucks to get fixed. The car had about 110,000 miles on it and was 10 years old. BTW I have seen plenty of Japanese cars with failed headgaskets. Even assuming you do have more problems (which is not likely based on personal experience) you still paid 4 to 5 grand more for a comparable Civic. The Cavalier is made with union labor in the USA with an 86% domestic parts content (according to 2002 window sticker). Something to think about when people are losing their jobs at historic rates.
I think toyota and honda products are way over priced. My opinion has nothing to do with the buyers market. They are worth what you can get on paper. IMO they are not worth the price.
This is the best post of the thread.quote:
Originally posted by cousincletus:
I think most of the perception problem is with car magazines. For example, how many bad reports have you read about the Chevy Cavalier? I can't think of anything good that I have read about it, but I have owned three of them over the last 20 years because they are so reliable. The only major problem I ever had with a Cavalier was a head gasket started leaking (external) and that cost 400 bucks to get fixed. The car had about 110,000 miles on it and was 10 years old. BTW I have seen plenty of Japanese cars with failed headgaskets. Even assuming you do have more problems (which is not likely based on personal experience) you still paid 4 to 5 grand more for a comparable Civic. The Cavalier is made with union labor in the USA with an 86% domestic parts content (according to 2002 window sticker). Something to think about when people are losing their jobs at historic rates.
A person that thinks import brands are better would call that 10 year old cavalier a pos American car when the civic they compare it to would have had way more money put it in to it by that age.
I don't think people are honest about the problems they have with thier honda/toyota's either. I think they are ashamed to admitt that the car has it's own set of issues when the number one reason the car is bought is for "perceived" reliability and quality.
Where's JB when you need him?
TooSlick will like this one:
One word sums up the problem with American cars...
REFINEMENT
TooSlick will like this one:
One word sums up the problem with American cars...
REFINEMENT
A friend of mine has a Cavalier with over 220,000 miles on it and no major repairs (I think a starter was about it), minimal maintenance. It has had a slight slipping in the tranny in high gear for about the last 100,000 miles and I keep telling her it's going to blow up, but it never gets worse and the car still drives (and looks) like it did 100K miles ago. Surprisingly, almost zero rust even here in the north.
A few things, the Cavalier was never poorly rated not due to reliability and such but driving experience, fit and assembly, course engines, seat comfort. The real issue with the car is that your buying a 1995 design that was not even the best at the time. The overall reliability has been average on this car which is great for a low priced vehicle.quote:
Originally posted by cousincletus:
The Cavalier is made with union labor in the USA with an 86% domestic parts content (according to 2002 window sticker). Something to think about when people are losing their jobs at historic rates.
With regards to parts content a Honda Civic is US built and has at least a 75% domestic parts content. It sells quite well so plenty of US workers are employed assembling them and servicing them. The Honda Accord another top seller is at least 70% us content and approx 300-400k are sold per year.
Most reliable car I ever owned was a '93 Olds Ciera with a 3.3L "baby" Buick V6. It did so well I gave it to my grandma, rather than sell it for next to nothing.
The Impala has not been the most reliable car, but it's certainly not been the worst of them. I've had a Mazda, a Nissan, and a Toyota also, and all of those were in and around the same league as the Impala, reliabilitywise.
Just got a Ford Festiva, which is a Mazda designed Kia built "American" import, and the "cachet" on that one is near low as can be, but they seem to be pretty bulletproof cars. Original owner of the car got 224k out of it with VERY FEW repairs and it's definitely the tightest car I've ever driven with that many miles. Heck, it has no rattles at 225k!
The Impala has not been the most reliable car, but it's certainly not been the worst of them. I've had a Mazda, a Nissan, and a Toyota also, and all of those were in and around the same league as the Impala, reliabilitywise.
Just got a Ford Festiva, which is a Mazda designed Kia built "American" import, and the "cachet" on that one is near low as can be, but they seem to be pretty bulletproof cars. Original owner of the car got 224k out of it with VERY FEW repairs and it's definitely the tightest car I've ever driven with that many miles. Heck, it has no rattles at 225k!
Probably because the owner of the Civic is thinking of the maintenance and repair as an investment in the future while the Cavalier driver is just waiting for the other shoe to drop and ignoring the non-essentials (like A/C, door hardware, etc)
Well I expect that if you're going to pay $5000 more for the car to start with you might be more inclined to take care of it?
I see that all the time, it was a cheap car, so I won't take care of it...
I paid $650 for my Festiva. Within 100 miles it had received Auto-Rx in the engine and transaxle, Borg-Warner Select Wires, rotor and cap, Autolite Platinum Pro plugs, and within the next 1000 or so will get new struts, Aspire brakes, tires, control arms, sway bar bushings, wheels, tires and an Aspire rear axle. I'll still be less than $1500 into the car and I'll have a car I can enjoy driving more and not worry about anything breaking.
BTW, none of the above is/was required. The car would probably have gone several years without needing a thing, but then the average person would probably have run the wheels off of it and scrap it...
I paid $650 for my Festiva. Within 100 miles it had received Auto-Rx in the engine and transaxle, Borg-Warner Select Wires, rotor and cap, Autolite Platinum Pro plugs, and within the next 1000 or so will get new struts, Aspire brakes, tires, control arms, sway bar bushings, wheels, tires and an Aspire rear axle. I'll still be less than $1500 into the car and I'll have a car I can enjoy driving more and not worry about anything breaking.
BTW, none of the above is/was required. The car would probably have gone several years without needing a thing, but then the average person would probably have run the wheels off of it and scrap it...
I bought this car, a 1996 Ford Contour, for $4500 with 72,000 miles on it about 2 years ago.
These are the emissions test results for the last 3 emissions checks:
As of 2/9/04, with 97394 miles:
15MPH
HC ppm limit 81, reading 9, PASS
CO% limit 0.45, reading 0.03, PASS
NO ppm limit 647, reading 2, PASS --NOT A TYPO
Dilution 15.2 PASS
25MPH
HC ppm limit 78, reading 13, PASS
CO% limit 0.43, reading 0.04, PASS
NO ppm limit 585, reading 2, PASS -- NOT A TYPO
Dilution 15.2 PASS
As of 11/08/01, with 71184 miles. Test results, with the exception of the 15MPH CO%, are noticeably worse than those above(this test done a few months before I bought this car):
15MPH
HC ppm limit 81, reading 35, PASS
CO% limit 0.45, reading 0, PASS
NO ppm limit 647, reading 103, PASS
Dilution 14.80 PASS
25MPH
HC ppm limit 78, reading 47, PASS
CO% limit 0.43, reading .01, PASS
NO ppm limit 585, reading 418, PASS [BARELY PASSED
Dilution 14.81 PASS
As of 05/25/2001, with 71178 miles. It failed this test, I believe it sat parked between 05/25/2001 and 11/08/01 (this is prior to my ownership of this car):
15MPH
HC ppm limit 81, reading 3, PASS
CO% limit 0.45, reading 0, PASS
NO ppm limit 647, reading 69, PASS
Dilution 14.60 PASS
25MPH
HC ppm limit 78, reading 5, PASS
CO% limit 0.43, reading 0, PASS
NO ppm limit 585, reading 1003, FAIL
Dilution 14.50 PASS
I think I did a public service by buying this car and getting it to run so clean!
Right now I've got Auto-RX in it to see if it will fix a slight rear main seal leak.
This was the car that needed the unscheduled alternator replacement because the battery developed a shorted cell and the P.O. thought that jump-starting the car was cheaper than buying a new battery.
Mine were not QUITE that good...
15MPH
HC ppm limit 246, reading 142, PASS
CO% limit 1.39, reading 0.37, PASS
NOx ppm limit 1944, reading 1924 , PASS -- NOT A TYPO
Dilution 14.8 PASS
25MPH
HC ppm limit 239, reading 94, PASS
CO% limit 1.54, reading .32, PASS
NOx ppm limit 1774, reading 1346, PASS
Dilution 14.7 PASS
That's with 225,000 miles on it(original cat) and with the AutoRx and Lucas fuel system cleaner it's running better every day. I'll be trying FP in it as soon as it comes in.
Course, it came from a place wit no emissions inspection...
[ May 26, 2004, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: VaderSS ]
15MPH
HC ppm limit 246, reading 142, PASS
CO% limit 1.39, reading 0.37, PASS
NOx ppm limit 1944, reading 1924 , PASS -- NOT A TYPO
Dilution 14.8 PASS
25MPH
HC ppm limit 239, reading 94, PASS
CO% limit 1.54, reading .32, PASS
NOx ppm limit 1774, reading 1346, PASS
Dilution 14.7 PASS
That's with 225,000 miles on it(original cat) and with the AutoRx and Lucas fuel system cleaner it's running better every day. I'll be trying FP in it as soon as it comes in.
Course, it came from a place wit no emissions inspection...
[ May 26, 2004, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: VaderSS ]
I think what got the NOx ppm numbers way down was the B12 Chemtool. That probably did a good job of cleaning the intake valves and the combustion chambers, removing any carbon that was in there.
Products like Seafoam and the various "top engine cleaners" are what is usually used for this type of cleaning, but B12 Chemtool is easier to find so that is what I use. Plus it, along with brake part cleaner, doubles as a good wasp killer...
Carbon buildup in the combustion chambers can cause an NOx failure. If there's an NOx failure and the EGR valve is working OK, there isn't a vaccum leak and the ignition timing is correct, I would suspect carbon buildup.
Products like Seafoam and the various "top engine cleaners" are what is usually used for this type of cleaning, but B12 Chemtool is easier to find so that is what I use. Plus it, along with brake part cleaner, doubles as a good wasp killer...
Carbon buildup in the combustion chambers can cause an NOx failure. If there's an NOx failure and the EGR valve is working OK, there isn't a vaccum leak and the ignition timing is correct, I would suspect carbon buildup.
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brianl703, having been based on the European Ford Mondeo, the Ford Contour (and Mercury Mystique) were essentially Euro cars.
Back in '96, the Contour was one of the three cars I considered buying: a 3 series BMW, an Audi A4, or the Contour. I went with the Audi.
I'm not biased against American cars. I've owned a Chevy and a Buick. But of all the Amrican cars I've owned or driven, none gave me the driving experience and handling I like in Euro cars. The exceptions are the Euro-American cars, which have superior suspension and steering. Don't get me wrong, I liked my Chevy, and I enjoyed the boat-like ride for what it was. I also didn't get this car for sporty driving, but for long leisurely trips and coasting around town. That's what this Chevy Celebrity wagon was good for. That and nothing else.
I'm happy to see Ford having success with the Focus. It's a nice and economical car with crisp handling and a good suspension. Also, interiors have come a long way in the latest American models. Not to mention exterior styling. Though I don't like all of what Chrysler (Mercler? Chrycedes?) is doing, I see a trend toward more refinement in design, fit and finish.
I'd love to see more good American cars on the road, and if I were to see one that I like 100%, I would surely buy it.
I'm not biased against American cars. I've owned a Chevy and a Buick. But of all the Amrican cars I've owned or driven, none gave me the driving experience and handling I like in Euro cars. The exceptions are the Euro-American cars, which have superior suspension and steering. Don't get me wrong, I liked my Chevy, and I enjoyed the boat-like ride for what it was. I also didn't get this car for sporty driving, but for long leisurely trips and coasting around town. That's what this Chevy Celebrity wagon was good for. That and nothing else.
I'm happy to see Ford having success with the Focus. It's a nice and economical car with crisp handling and a good suspension. Also, interiors have come a long way in the latest American models. Not to mention exterior styling. Though I don't like all of what Chrysler (Mercler? Chrycedes?) is doing, I see a trend toward more refinement in design, fit and finish.
I'd love to see more good American cars on the road, and if I were to see one that I like 100%, I would surely buy it.
Well I might as well take a stab at this (ooops, sorry...) one too. There are a couple problems I see with your position on this. First, what does "overpriced" mean? Impalas simply aren't cheaper to buy than Camrys. No, you don't get "rebates," but if you know how to make a deal, you end up with a similar package. For cars with similar levels of equipment, they're roughly equivalent. I had a rental Impala last year while waiting to replace my '02 Camry that had been totalled in a wreck. I found the Imp to be a decent car, so I shopped it carefully, and found it had no initial price advantage.
Second, you completely overlook the long term financial value and instead narrowly focus on purchase price. Even assuming that an "equal" Camry was 10-20% more to buy, which it's not, you'd still come out better in the long run, since generally the Chevrolet is going to lose a lot more value year by year. If you're going to make realistic assertions about one car costing more than another, you need to take this into account too.
Third, my own experience, while obviously being anecdotal and not statistically significant, bears out the common perception that Toyotas and Hondas are still built to a higher standard than U.S. cars. My last U.S. car was a 1998 Buick Regal GS. With the supercharged engine, it was a blast to drive. I also dreaded looking in the rearview mirror since I started fearing there'd be parts receding in it. Sadly, this car had more "issues" than Frazier Crane. My Toyotas (and an old Civic I had years ago) are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I have to say (with some sadness) that they're better made than any American car I've ever owned (including examples from GM, Ford, and Chrysler).
Buy whatever car makes you feel like you did the right thing for you. But asserting that certain cars are "way overpriced," is, with all due respect, largely meaningless. Car purchases are like dancing -- it takes two to tango. Even if I did pay a bit more for my Camry than I would have for an equivalent Impala, I'm a long way from feeling like the car is overpriced. I feel like it was a comparative bargain, in fact.
Yes, but....most of the components used in the Ford Contour are shared with other Ford vehicles designed and built in the USA.quote:
Originally posted by moribundman:
brianl703, having been based on the European Ford Mondeo, the Ford Contour (and Mercury Mystique) were essentially Euro cars.
Therefore I cannot say that the good reliability that the Ford Contour has given me is due to it being a Euro car.
The good handling, however, IS due to it being a Euro car.
Ford's biggest quality issue has been Taurus transmission problems. Once that turd of a car is mercilessly terminated and replaced with something better, I expect that Ford's reputation will improve.
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The Ford Mondeo had been out for a few years before production for the US market began. Wherever the car was designed, it surely was first of all designed for the European market. Ford also wanted the Mondeo to become a world car. Unfortunately, the marketed it as the replacement for the decrepit Tempo, which must have been one of Ford's worst cars.
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