I think Ford engineers found the solution to the thick film ignition within a year after its introduction on the '83 models. The engineers were ignored just as they were on the Firestone tire issue, the Pinto fuel tank, the Chrysler minivan latches, the GM saddle tanks, etc. The slavish devotion to the bottom line must blind executives at times, as in can't see the forest for the trees.
bias against American cars
- Thread starter Stab
- Start date
- Status
Another dimension to this: Toyota has the Landcruiser/Lexus LX-470. Nothing produced by either Chevy or Caddy can come close to touching this vehicle. Now this one IS overpriced, but it's still a masterpiece that has no rival. Candidly, it makes me a little smug to think that my fairly basic Sequoia has the same engine as the lofty Landcruiser.
[/qb][/QUOTE]Another dimension to this: Toyota has the Landcruiser/Lexus LX-470. Nothing produced by either Chevy or Caddy can come close to touching this vehicle. Now this one IS overpriced, but it's still a masterpiece that has no rival. Candidly, it makes me a little smug to think that my fairly basic Sequoia has the same engine as the lofty Landcruiser. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I think that quality carries over to the other Toyota SUV's. The new Lexus GX470 is built in the same factory in Japan as the Toyota 4runner. The 4runner V8 is identical to the GX470 other than the body. The frame, axles, drivetrain, electronics, engine, transmission, transfer case, etc is the same. All they did to make the Lexus is put another body on top of the frame. I looked at both before I bought, did a lot of research and decided I liked the looks of the 4runner better, plus I like the aluminum trim of the 4runner better than the dated look of the wood and leather. Plus I got all of the important stuff for $15,000 less with the 4runner.
I think that quality carries over to the other Toyota SUV's. The new Lexus GX470 is built in the same factory in Japan as the Toyota 4runner. The 4runner V8 is identical to the GX470 other than the body. The frame, axles, drivetrain, electronics, engine, transmission, transfer case, etc is the same. All they did to make the Lexus is put another body on top of the frame. I looked at both before I bought, did a lot of research and decided I liked the looks of the 4runner better, plus I like the aluminum trim of the 4runner better than the dated look of the wood and leather. Plus I got all of the important stuff for $15,000 less with the 4runner.
There is not one product that GM makes that can come close to the quality and engineering that Toyota produces, let alone Lexus. The paint on my new 4runner is better than anything I've ever seen on a Cadillac. GM just doesn't get it. Very very sad.
I bet the car in your driveway was built in another country, even if it is a GM, Ford or Dodge. Chances are that if you bought a Toyota, BMW and most of the other brands that you consider foreign.quote:
Originally posted by cousincletus:
The reason why I buy American is I get a good product for lots less , parts are more available and cheaper, and most of all I am concerned about keeping jobs in this country. Some people just don't care about anyone else but themselves and could care less if their neighbor lost his or her job. You'll never, ever see an import in my driveway.
I think that a lot of the bias originated in the 1980's, when the US made a lot of junk and the Japanese took advantage of the situation by increasing vehicle size for more appeal. It's also regional, as the coasts have embraced imports more than the interior. In the 80s coworkers had; Chryslers catch on fire in their driveway, dedicated Ford and Chevy owners swore to never buy another American car, a party when fially getting rid of a Camero that came to be called the 'Devil's Chariot', '4-6-8' Cadillacs that GM bought back, diesels that GM bought back, etc. But, people seem to easily forget the major problems that some Japanese cars had; cars that rusted out in a couple of seasons, immature rotary engine technology, low turbocharged engine life, and recently engine sludging in Toyotas. What's hard to initially recognize are well developed and/or mature vehicles, ones that end up being durable and ideally realiable too. I have the impression that I see more old full size pickups on the road than imports from the same era, but it's just an impression.
We donated our Honda Civic to charity when it had about 120k miles on it, as it was down on compression in one cylinder, needed a carb rebuild, and produced a lot of blue smoke when starting it up. We drove it hard as we live on hill and have three kids, but it didn't last like the 250k to 300k mile Accords that a few coworkers and friends have. We have a 93 Taurus with about 174k miles, and a 99 Taurus with almost 75k miles, and while the 93 has had the starter, fuel pump, wiper motor, light switch, turn signal switch, water pump, radiator, and shocks replaced, opted not to the replace the air conditioner as they wanted a $1000 to do it, we did have zero problems for the initial 75k miles. It burns some oil now but still runs well and gets 28 mpg on the highway. In our case there wasn't much choice on vehicle as we wanted the most affordable car that could seat six, which ruled out the Camry and Accord, and since we got both for $13k the SUVs and minivans weren't a consideration.
We donated our Honda Civic to charity when it had about 120k miles on it, as it was down on compression in one cylinder, needed a carb rebuild, and produced a lot of blue smoke when starting it up. We drove it hard as we live on hill and have three kids, but it didn't last like the 250k to 300k mile Accords that a few coworkers and friends have. We have a 93 Taurus with about 174k miles, and a 99 Taurus with almost 75k miles, and while the 93 has had the starter, fuel pump, wiper motor, light switch, turn signal switch, water pump, radiator, and shocks replaced, opted not to the replace the air conditioner as they wanted a $1000 to do it, we did have zero problems for the initial 75k miles. It burns some oil now but still runs well and gets 28 mpg on the highway. In our case there wasn't much choice on vehicle as we wanted the most affordable car that could seat six, which ruled out the Camry and Accord, and since we got both for $13k the SUVs and minivans weren't a consideration.
1stTruck:
Some good, common sense observations. I traded my '88 Civic with 150k miles for the ill-fated Buick -- one of the worst car decisions I've ever made. The Civic, having been fed a diet of Mobil-1 on a regular basis, was running like new, and all you could see through the oil filler was clean, bare, silvery metal. It didn't even have any varnish visible. And I flogged that car without mercy (Honda fours ARE a bit short on useable torque) for ten years.
The Japanese cars are not perfect, as I've said several times in this thread. It is interesting, however, to compare how problems are handled. Look at the Toyota sludge problem. It was real, and if you weren't careful, you'd get it fast. After some reticence, Toyota fessed up, fixed the enging, and created an previously non-existent warranty to cover sludge cleanup in effected cars. Compare GM's strategy. Despite years of notice, and everyone being fully aware of problems, they continue to build V-8s with slap happy pistons, and 60-deg V-6s that blow their intake seals. How hard could these things be to fix??? They just won't do it.
One thing that I did fail to acknowledge in prior posts: because the US cars typically DO depreciate significantly more than the Japanese products, they often do make fine used car deals. But again, these are personal preference calls. We should all do what we feel is best, and not lose sleep over the fact that others make different choices.
Some good, common sense observations. I traded my '88 Civic with 150k miles for the ill-fated Buick -- one of the worst car decisions I've ever made. The Civic, having been fed a diet of Mobil-1 on a regular basis, was running like new, and all you could see through the oil filler was clean, bare, silvery metal. It didn't even have any varnish visible. And I flogged that car without mercy (Honda fours ARE a bit short on useable torque) for ten years.
The Japanese cars are not perfect, as I've said several times in this thread. It is interesting, however, to compare how problems are handled. Look at the Toyota sludge problem. It was real, and if you weren't careful, you'd get it fast. After some reticence, Toyota fessed up, fixed the enging, and created an previously non-existent warranty to cover sludge cleanup in effected cars. Compare GM's strategy. Despite years of notice, and everyone being fully aware of problems, they continue to build V-8s with slap happy pistons, and 60-deg V-6s that blow their intake seals. How hard could these things be to fix??? They just won't do it.
One thing that I did fail to acknowledge in prior posts: because the US cars typically DO depreciate significantly more than the Japanese products, they often do make fine used car deals. But again, these are personal preference calls. We should all do what we feel is best, and not lose sleep over the fact that others make different choices.
All of mine were assembled in the USA, but the point of final assembly isn't as important as the parts origin. Most Jap. cars have about a 60% or so US/Canadian parts content and the Cavalier has a 86% content and was assembled in Lordstown, OH. I'm not trying to say that I'm more patriotic than anyone else, but I'll do anything in my power to help this country. God Bless America!
Actually the top selling Civic and Accord are approx 75-80% US content and are built in Ohio/Canada by North American Workers. They have been built in the US since 1984, support American workers, buy a Honda.
The Toyota Camry's a top seller also is produced in Kentucky and contains approx 75% US parts content.
Overall they are good cars and keep many US auto workers employed as they are all top sellers.
[ May 29, 2004, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: andyfish ]
The Toyota Camry's a top seller also is produced in Kentucky and contains approx 75% US parts content.
Overall they are good cars and keep many US auto workers employed as they are all top sellers.
[ May 29, 2004, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: andyfish ]
I hear you, your heart is in the right place. It must take you hours when you go shopping for almost anything.quote:
Originally posted by cousincletus:
All of mine were assembled in the USA, but the point of final assembly isn't as important as the parts origin. Most Jap. cars have about a 60% or so US/Canadian parts content and the Cavalier has a 86% content and was assembled in Lordstown, OH. I'm not trying to say that I'm more patriotic than anyone else, but I'll do anything in my power to help this country. God Bless America![/QB]
Semper Fi
J.D. Powers longterm and short erm quality rateing and their long term and short term durability rateings preety much says it all. Toyota is the leader and this is industry driven not consumer driven like Consumer Reports!
I have owned a lot of AMerican products and always have them nickle and dime me inspite of agressive maintence program. I have never had a Toyota nickle and dime me ever. I also work in the auto industry and see a lot of problems swept under the rug or ignored.
All companys make some lemons even my precious Toyota!!! The difference is in the number of lemons produced.
I like engines that do nothave piston slap, excessive oil consuption or multiple gasket failure. I also like transmission that typical last the life of the engine and like my rotor and hubs/bearings to last at least 150,000 miles before I have to replace them. I also like starters and alternaotrs that will last at least 7-8 years. I do not like to have to drill out rivets to change a ball joint either. I expect everything in the car t work for the life of the car! This is seldom the case for most domestics unless the car is trailer queen or the owner is anal retentive. The way I figure it the first 3- 5 years I am paying to drive the car and everything should last. The next 5 years the car is paying me to drive it. If I have to do major repairs then then the company failed me!
Now if you are looking at a used car then things change a bit. It is much eaier to get a sweet deal on a domestic.
I have owned a lot of AMerican products and always have them nickle and dime me inspite of agressive maintence program. I have never had a Toyota nickle and dime me ever. I also work in the auto industry and see a lot of problems swept under the rug or ignored.
All companys make some lemons even my precious Toyota!!! The difference is in the number of lemons produced.
I like engines that do nothave piston slap, excessive oil consuption or multiple gasket failure. I also like transmission that typical last the life of the engine and like my rotor and hubs/bearings to last at least 150,000 miles before I have to replace them. I also like starters and alternaotrs that will last at least 7-8 years. I do not like to have to drill out rivets to change a ball joint either. I expect everything in the car t work for the life of the car! This is seldom the case for most domestics unless the car is trailer queen or the owner is anal retentive. The way I figure it the first 3- 5 years I am paying to drive the car and everything should last. The next 5 years the car is paying me to drive it. If I have to do major repairs then then the company failed me!
Now if you are looking at a used car then things change a bit. It is much eaier to get a sweet deal on a domestic.
I get a GM supplier discount on new vechile purchases. I could not get anything with the buick 3.8 for $17,000 or less! No in the $17,000 price range I was restricted to the 3.1 and 3.4 V6. I do not hold either of those engines in high reguards!
I can also get supplier discounts with Dodge,Ford, Audi,VW and Subaru. I could not find anything that I liked in the $17,000 that would hold 3 car seats and two adults.
On a whim I went to a Toyota dealership. I ended up walking away with a new 03 Camry for $17,000 dollars. It has a 4 cylinder, it has my choice of a 5-Spd manual, cloth seat(power), nice 8-10 speaker system with CD,tape,AM/FM, A/C etc....
How can you go wrong with the industry leader for like what 15 year. The car handles and rides much better then my Buick and has as much usuable space in the interior and a trunk that is actualy more useable. It is easier to get in and out of two due to higher ride height, steering wheel and seat geometry.
The sad thing is that the Camry out handles almost all of the front wheel drive GM line up. I have not driven a recent Bonivile or GTP though. It rides better and is more comfortable as well then vechiles costing a lot more. If equiped with the V6 then it is also a very sporty fwd family sedan.If you want to load it up you can.
For me long term powertrain durability was the issue. I knew that what ever powertrain I got from Toyota would be more durable then the 3.4 or 3.1 V6.
I can also get supplier discounts with Dodge,Ford, Audi,VW and Subaru. I could not find anything that I liked in the $17,000 that would hold 3 car seats and two adults.
On a whim I went to a Toyota dealership. I ended up walking away with a new 03 Camry for $17,000 dollars. It has a 4 cylinder, it has my choice of a 5-Spd manual, cloth seat(power), nice 8-10 speaker system with CD,tape,AM/FM, A/C etc....
How can you go wrong with the industry leader for like what 15 year. The car handles and rides much better then my Buick and has as much usuable space in the interior and a trunk that is actualy more useable. It is easier to get in and out of two due to higher ride height, steering wheel and seat geometry.
The sad thing is that the Camry out handles almost all of the front wheel drive GM line up. I have not driven a recent Bonivile or GTP though. It rides better and is more comfortable as well then vechiles costing a lot more. If equiped with the V6 then it is also a very sporty fwd family sedan.If you want to load it up you can.
For me long term powertrain durability was the issue. I knew that what ever powertrain I got from Toyota would be more durable then the 3.4 or 3.1 V6.
I think changes are coming soon on this issue. ALL cars are getting more reliable and long-lasting. Also, all of the Big 3 have join ventures and/or own a percentage of Japanese/European car companies. I think Ford will soon produce higher quality cars, especially with the Mazda influence in sedans. GM too from Toyota and owning chunks of Subaru, Isuzu, Suzuki, etc. Chrysler is being heavily influenced by Mercedes. (look at the Crossfire and their return of RWD) So, while the issue is still arguable now, I think the Japanese are going to lose their quality/reliability advantage soon. Korean cars are going to become a big threat, I think. I even read recently that Hyundai rated higher than all European and domestic makes in reliability last year. But the Japanese are not ignorant and they know this. Hence they are moving to target marketing (like Scion) and the development of newer technologies to keep them ahead of the race. (who else has their SECOND generation hybrid on the road? Everybody else is yet to produce their first generation.) Lets see what happens.
this is a pretty funny thread. i guess ill add my input.
i make it a point to buy a car built in asia. i will never buy any car built in america, even if its an asian car. it has to be built in japan for me to consider it.
i also will never buy a new car. when i am shopping for a car i look for one with a problem, like a blown trans or engine because i am mechanically inclined and blown engines and such are not a big deal for me to fix.
my current daily transportation cost me $500.
i make it a point to buy a car built in asia. i will never buy any car built in america, even if its an asian car. it has to be built in japan for me to consider it.
i also will never buy a new car. when i am shopping for a car i look for one with a problem, like a blown trans or engine because i am mechanically inclined and blown engines and such are not a big deal for me to fix.
my current daily transportation cost me $500.
So is this about correct?
"Yea, I had some domestic car back in 1980-something, it was a real POS and I've driven a Toyota/Honda ever since".
Well...newsflash...Reagan isn't in office anymore, Beta lost the format war, CD players are now commonplace, DOS 2.11 is obsolete, so are 8088 CPUs, 640K is nowhere near enough, AIDS isn't talked about every night on the evening news anymore, cable has more than 36 channels, 8-tracks are extinct, breakdancing came and went, and domestic cars are a **** of a lot more reliable now.
But it's different for me. My first experience with a domestic car was a 1991 Ford Escort. It belonged to my mom. All she did for the 10 years she drove it was get the oil changed. Well it needed a timing belt too, but the engine didn't self-destruct when it broke.
Then there was that 1995 Ford Contour. I drove that thing like a bat outta **** . I wasn't gentle with it at all. Obviously I liked it, since I now have a 1996 Ford Contour and my brother has the 1995 Ford Contour, which is still on the original starter/alternator (even on the original clutch, at 140,000 miles).
In between those two cars was that 1986 Dodge Omni. I didn't have high expectations for a $850, 10-year-old car. Frankly, though, if I knew now what I knew then, I could have done something with it.
But it'd still have been that ugly shade of yellow. Still, this mid 80s Chrysler WASN'T going to change my perception of domestic vehicles. That 1991 Ford Escort cemented that, and the 1995 Ford Contour just re-affirmed it. And so did the 1996 Ford Contour.
"Yea, I had some domestic car back in 1980-something, it was a real POS and I've driven a Toyota/Honda ever since".
Well...newsflash...Reagan isn't in office anymore, Beta lost the format war, CD players are now commonplace, DOS 2.11 is obsolete, so are 8088 CPUs, 640K is nowhere near enough, AIDS isn't talked about every night on the evening news anymore, cable has more than 36 channels, 8-tracks are extinct, breakdancing came and went, and domestic cars are a **** of a lot more reliable now.
But it's different for me. My first experience with a domestic car was a 1991 Ford Escort. It belonged to my mom. All she did for the 10 years she drove it was get the oil changed. Well it needed a timing belt too, but the engine didn't self-destruct when it broke.
Then there was that 1995 Ford Contour. I drove that thing like a bat outta **** . I wasn't gentle with it at all. Obviously I liked it, since I now have a 1996 Ford Contour and my brother has the 1995 Ford Contour, which is still on the original starter/alternator (even on the original clutch, at 140,000 miles).
In between those two cars was that 1986 Dodge Omni. I didn't have high expectations for a $850, 10-year-old car. Frankly, though, if I knew now what I knew then, I could have done something with it.
But it'd still have been that ugly shade of yellow. Still, this mid 80s Chrysler WASN'T going to change my perception of domestic vehicles. That 1991 Ford Escort cemented that, and the 1995 Ford Contour just re-affirmed it. And so did the 1996 Ford Contour.
So you'll only buy Japanese cars with blown engines or transmissions?
I thought those parts were supposed to last forever on those cars?
Well, alas, I've got a newsflash for you too. . . My monster Buicks were made ten years after Reagan left office and long, long after Beta breathed its last gasp (they were both 98 models). If only the domestics had really gotten their acts together back then. Yes, there are some fine cars made in the USA (my Mom has a great Contour, BTW), but overall, the domestics have a long way to come before I'll spend my hard-earned money on one of their products again.
I always hated working on Japanese cars. Everything seems hard to get at. If you like to do major repairs anyway, what's your beef with "unreliable" domestic cars? You can get parts easier and cheaper, plus the car costs less to begin with.
[/qb][/QUOTE]I always hated working on Japanese cars. Everything seems hard to get at. If you like to do major repairs anyway, what's your beef with "unreliable" domestic cars? You can get parts easier and cheaper, plus the car costs less to begin with.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
I think you got us on this one. I don't know anyone that ever had to do any "MAJOR" repairs on a Japanese vehicle
I guess it's a good thing that the big three makes it easy to do "MAJOR" repairs since the odd's are high that if you keep one very long you will find out. I'll just give you one example of the engineering and plan old good sense that the Japanese use and the domestics just want to save a nickle. On my Dodge 3500 CTD you need to change the differential fluid every 15K miles, it's a pain in the butt, you have to take out 8-10 bolts pry off the cover hope you don't get anything in there that shouldn't be, and then use sealant let it cure bolt everything back up and then fill it back up. With my Toyota Landcruiser, all I had to do was unscrew the drain bolt, let the old fluid drain out and then screw the bolt back in and fill it up. Big difference, Dodge stupid, Toyota smart. Also every thing on the Landcruiser is so easy to work on compared to the Dodge. Of course the only things I've ever had to do to the Landcruiser in over 136K miles was fluids, hoses and belts.
I think you got us on this one. I don't know anyone that ever had to do any "MAJOR" repairs on a Japanese vehicle
- Status
Similar threads
