BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !

[wulimaster]

quote:

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Originally posted by Don Stefanik:
If the ByPass filters cause low oil pressure or any other problem the WHOLE engine would be worn out. Not just one bearing. Come on guys think about it.

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I did some looking around on the web and found that some others had crank bearings 1 and 3 go out caused by crankshaft wobble. One had the failure at 10k miles. I could find nothing about camshaft bearing failure. I think Subaru had a supplier problem which they fixed after it came out in a few engine failures. Of course they would never admit that as the standard procedure is to deny any fault in situations such as this. Had you not had the bypass they would have probably blamed lack of maintenance if you couldn't prove with dealer receipts that you did all the service within the severe interval. Just ask those who experienced the Toyota sludge problem.

I also read the warrenty which a Subaru Forester owner posted and it said that they would not cover any problem caused by the addition of a non approved modification. I read the sentence carefully and it specifically said that the modification had to be the cause of the damage. Since Subaru did not find the Amsoil bypass to be the CAUSE, then they should have to warrenty the repair. GET A LAWYER and get your money back from the real crooks at Subaru.

 

[2Grand4s]

All you Amsoil defenders :

AMSOIL INC., Attn: Technical Services
AMSOIL Bldg.
Superior, WI 54880

e. In cases where the OEM warranty is still in effect and that warranty coverage is denied based on the use of an AMSOIL lubricant, the customer shall immediately notify AMSOIL INC. and provide a written copy of the OEM warranty denial.
f. AMSOIL INC. may, at its option, notify its insurance carrier of the claim.
g. AMSOIL INC. or its insurance carrier may conduct an investigation that includes, but is not limited to, an inspection of the failed parts, a review of the operating conditions, and a thorough review of the information requested above. The customer agrees to cooperate with such investigation.
h. If AMSOIL INC. or its insurance carrier pays a claim, an attempt may be made to recover amounts paid from the OEM. If this occurs, the customer may be asked to provide further information pertaining to the failure and to cooperate with AMSOIL INC. or its insurer in the recovery process.

The Above IS Amsoil's Warranty, and I complied with it. They had all the engine maintenace and oil analysis that they did. They know the owner never failed in the least to maintain the engine. Amsoil acknowledged the installation was falwless, Amsoil admitted to me that the Subaru of America were taking advantage of this simply to avoid paying a legit warranty claim. They admit that Moss-Magnuson law was violated by Subaru. Amsoil's tech people talked to me and LED ME TO BELIEVE that they woul stand by their dealer against Goliath, The Subaru Company, why else would I have re-installed the filter after failure of engine # 1

Sorry boys, the AMSOIL warranty isn't worth a thing. The above even SEE section :h) indicates and implies Amsoil will go after the OEM manufacturer to recover the money they or their insurance carrier spends to fix the problem, DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT !

SELL & Use Amsoil products at your own risk !

 

[Bio-T]

e. In cases where the OEM warranty is still in effect and that warranty coverage is denied based on the use of an Amsoil Lubricant , the customer shall immediately notify AMSOIL INC. and provide a written copy of the OEM warranty denial.


Did you not state that your warranty was denied because of the bypass filter, not lubricant? Maybe I am reading the words wrong. Help me understand the correlation.

Buy and drive a Sube at your own risk, if you modify it, no engine warranty.

I personally think you got a raw deal and I can share your pain in this matter. But it is a shared blame.

[ May 12, 2005, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]

 

[Winston]

You can always request arbitration. There is probably a clause in the warrenty requiring arbitration. Although you might have to try mediation first. These options are not usually very expensive. Especially if you represent yourself.

 

[2Grand4s]

The missing 12 grand is a fact. The two engine failures with an Amsoil Dual By-Pass unit properly installed is another fact, and the unmistakable implication written into the Amsoil guarantee is that Amsoil will stand behind the small individual independent seller of their products against the ' Behemouth ' auto manufacture is another fact.

I wrote this as warning to you all. You could easily become me. I did this right, I co-operated with Amsoil, I provided documentation, oil analysis, and all the damaged engine and parts for examination. Amsoil basically said, 'Sorry ! Not OUR problem !' And the Moss-Magnuson act which Subaru Clearly Violated by voiding a new car warranty without providing required proof that the after market AMSOIL product contributed to the engine failure, also proves that Amsoil's constant and continuing reference to that law as an 'Amsoil Dealers' shield is also a lie. You end up in a David (you & me) against TWO GOLIATHS, Amsoil and the new car manufacturer.

Do Not Trust Your Fate To AMSOIL !

 

[2Grand4s]

Wulimaster,

Just Curios. If After Spending 12,000 dollars to repair your customer/sister's car YOU could afford to hire a lawyer for the years it would entail to force a Humungous Corporation to own up to its responsibilites and obey the Moss-Magnuson Law which requires, in my case, that Subaru PROVE that the Amsoil By-Pass unit contributed to the engine failures.

I work for a living. Saving 12 grand is along time and effort for most. The lawyer could easily run 20,000 before any success was possible. Amsoil counts on this. Subaru counts on this.

As far as reduced oil pressure causing just one bearing to fail, talk to an engineer, it happens all the time. Amsoil told me the unit could not have contributed to that lowered oil pressure, even IF Subaru admitted that was the units failing, which they did not !

 

[wavinwayne]

2grand4s,
Assuming you have not passed the statute of limitations, you could theoretically sue either Amsoil or Subaru (your choice) in small claims court for the maximum amount that small claims allows ($5000?). A little money is better than nothing, if you think you could win the case.

 

[slalom44]

So what actually failed on these two engines?

 

[bulwnkl]

Have you heard of contingency?

Have you read the Subaru of America warranty? Moss-Magnuson would not necessarily preclude Subaru from denying your warranty. You have to read the warranty. If this was such a clear-cut case (as you imply), an attorney in the seedier areas of your city should be completely willing to handle this for you.

The Subaru I have now is too old for the warranty to be relevant, but I very strongly suspect they do have the prerogative to void your warranty. Amsoil has no responsibility to you because their warranty does not address manufacturer warranty voids based on modification of the vehicle.

I'm sorry you are out the money. Vetteman has it right, though.

The thing to be learned here is to read ALL the words and never rely on verbal assurances this day and age. When push comes to shove only the written words have the slightest bearing on what will happen.

 

[iceberg]

I'm no rocket scientist, but you would think that amsoil would go to bat for this guy. Do they have to? NO, but you think they would. The dealer said it was amsoils product that caused the engine failure. Not once but twice. I'm not saying buy him a new engine but take the subaru dealer to court and claim Magnuson-Moss etc etc and make the dealer follow the laws. They have the funds to do it not an end used. This guy was an amsoil dealer and they didn't help him.

Simple solution for everyone reading this. REMOVE THE FILTERS BEFORE GOING TO THE STEALERSHIP! When my dodge pickup went into the shop for a bad cylinder head. I spent a few hours taking off my bypass filters before it went in. They went right back on after it was fixed. problem solved. I even took off my CAI and put the stock airbox back on. You never want to give the stealership any ammo when it comes to a warranty claim.

 

[Eddie]

I feel vetteman has it correct in that it is shared responsibility in this case. With engines running over 200,000 miles on any good oil and maintaince program why would anyone take a chance messing up an engine or waranty by using unaproved stuff?

 

[Eddie]

An additional though that is based on years of experience dealing with companies. One tries NEVER to get into a SHARED RESPONSIBILITY situation like this. Even if you win, which is very doubtful it will cost you many months/years to acheive anything.

 

[Gary Allan]

This isn't an Amsoil problem. It's a consumer's problem with Subaru's warranty. The consumer wasn't denied coverage because of the failure of the Amsoil unit. It was denied because the presense of the Amoil unit violated the conditions of the warranty contract. The poster appears upset that because the use of the Amsoil product voilated his conditions of warranty ..and expects them, without cause, to pickup the Subaru obligations that were removed with the use of the product ..even though there was no malfunction with their product.

There's a big difference between:

That Amsoil junk cause your engine to grenade!

and

Because you used the Amsoil unit, we have no obligation under the term of our warranty contract to fix this.

His beef is with Subaru.

 

[trynew]

If the description of the events that occurred in this thread is accurate, if I were going to purchase a new Subaru, I would not even consider putting an Amsoil bypass unit on it. If the vehicle needed to be brought in for any type of warranty service or recall, the unit would have to be removed, then reinstalled again each time.

My conclusion is that sales of these units is not that important to Amsoil. I think Amsoil might have taken more action if a warranty was voided just by the fact that an owner was using their oil.

Maybe Amsoil was not at fault, but they didn't do anything to develop confidence in the purchasers of their bypass unit. They didn't take on a company that invalidated a warranty just because of its mere presence on a vehicle. The end result is that I wouldn't even consider purchasing this unit for a new Subaru, and maybe not for other brands of new vehicles either.

 

[slalom44]

Let's assume that both engines failed due to a spun bearing (I have to assume because 2Grand hasn't given us details). It is not unreasonable for Subaru to deny warranty on these engines because the BMK-13 system has a bypass valve that purposely increases the backpressure (to force more oil through the bypass filter). In Bob's filter tests he found this backpressure to be somewhere around 30PSI.

Now, let's assume that your Subaru's pressure relief valve kicks open at around 75 psi (if anyone knows what the maximum oil pressure is on this engine, please chime in). With a drop across the filter of 30 psi, that means that the maximum this engine sees is 45 psi.

For a warmed-up engine, this isn't a problem. But maybe due to the particular flow patterns of a boxer engine with cold, viscous oil some bearings don't get any oil flow, or it takes a while for flow to get to a particular bearing. That's reason enough for Subaru to deny warranty.

I have to assume (because you haven't told us) that you didnt have an oil pressure gauge. If measured post-filter, you'd know how much pressure your engine was actually getting. But if your oil pressure gauge was pegging out at the max oil pressure - the pressure that your pressure relief valve opens up at - until the car is warmed up, you could be dumping a lot of oil back into your oilpan while accelerating to highway speeds. I'm also assuming that you didn't kick up the pressure on your engine's pressure relief valve (with a spacer or a stiffer spring) to compensate for the added pressure.

We could help you figure out what happened, but you haven't given us the details. You had a third party analysis done, likely by a guy that doesn't know jack about your particular bypass filter system. Rather than badmouth Amsoil, why don't you give us the details, and we can figure out what happened?

By the way, I wouldn't dream of putting a dual remote bypass system on my car without confirming adequate pressure to my engine. But that's just me.

 

[Winston]

What do the warranty's say regarding dispute resolution? Usually they require arbitration which is not too expensive and you could represent yourself. Just because they have a lot of money does not mean they will win. They probably will not even show up.

 

[Gary Allan]

You're correct, Winston ..or so I believe. The main thing that manufacturers have on their side is time. They can stallball to the point where the consumer gives up due to necessity or inability to manage the hassle factor. People really run into trouble when they assume that everyone will do as they perceive they should. It's rarely that way.


Honda, btw, has hassled many an owner, for the mere installation of an aftermarket air fitler/K&N type thing.

 

[keith]

I always assume that ANY engine modification could be used by the car manufacturer to evade responsibility for warranty repair, no matter if the evasion is legitimate or not.

In your situation, I'm not surprised that Amsoil and Subaru are both keeping their wallets closed. You made an oiling system modification and the bearings failed. Subaru are totally off the hook. Amsoil say the oiling modification was installed correctly and worked as designed. It's not Amsoil's fault.

Good luck, but I don't see how you can definitively pin the blame on either party. To blame Amsoil, you need to prove that the failure was due to the modification, and you have not.

No case.

 

[Winston]

I looked up the dispute resolution procedure for my newer Mitsubishi. Three steps;
1. Discuss with dealer.
2. Discuss with Mitsu Motors USA
3. Submit claim to third party dispute resolution company.

The claim for for the dispute resolution company is with the owners documents. You just fill out the form, submit any supporting documentation that you have and then they will make a decision. There are three people on the panel that decides the claim. At least one is an ASE certified technician. And here is the interesting part. Their decision is binding only if you accept it. If you don't like it you can sue them I guess. Oh, and the process is free to the consumer.

Anyway, it is nice that they at least have a process. I wonder what Suburu's process is?

 

[iceberg]

I agree with trynew. Events like this make people think hey maybe I shouldn't put one of these bypass filters on my new car because of what happened. That is the last thing you would think amsoil would want people to think.