Beta ratios ... help me understand!!

[river_rat]

That's 'Busa's. My filter is mounter threaded end up. We both have Tacoma pickup, but he has the V-6 and mine is a 4 cylinder.

I think the ADBV on his serves to keep the filter from entirely draining by trapping some oil between the media and the can. I think this is so because some oil will drain through the media, but there is probably a vacuum formed that will not break through the media because of surface tension. That's why he has some oil there unless he breakes the vacuum with a punch. Without the ADBV, the filter would likely be empty completely.

In my upright filter, I think what happens is the oil back-siphon is stopped by the ADBV..or even with an imperfect ADBV seal and/or extended sitting time...the ADBV at least slows the back-siphon enough to allow air to seep in over the oil and break the siphon effect.

Thoughts?
No matter how long my truck sets, I always have from 3/4 full to overflowing filter if I pull it off cold.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
That's 'Busa's. My filter is mounter threaded end up. We both have Tacoma pickup, but he has the V-6 and mine is a 4 cylinder.

I think the ADBV on his serves to keep the filter from entirely draining by trapping some oil between the media and the can. I think this is so because some oil will drain through the media, but there is probably a vacuum formed that will not break through the media because of surface tension. That's why he has some oil there unless he breakes the vacuum with a punch. Without the ADBV, the filter would likely be empty completely.


Exactly ... well described. If I do not punch a hole in the filter and let it drain all night, I will definitely have oil puke when I remove the filter. This verifies that the ADBV does NOT allow all the oil to drain out of the filter - even if it sits for a day or two.

Another observation that verifies that the ADBV works and does not allow the filter to completely empty is if the truck sits for 2 days and I start it, the oil pressure light goes out in ~ 1/2 second. When I start the truck after a new bone dry filter is installed, it takes about 2 ~ 3 seconds for the oil light to go out. Obviously, there is quite a bit of oil in the filter even after sitting (base side down on my truck) for days.

Now if the ADBV was a big leaker, and my truck sat for a couple of days, it's likely that the filter might be almost empty. So far, it seems all the filters I've used on this truck have had good working ADBVs.

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Another observation that verifies that the ADBV works and does not allow the filter to completely empty is if the truck sits for 2 days and I start it, the oil pressure light goes out in ~ 1/2 second. When I start the truck after a new bone dry filter is installed, it takes about 2 ~ 3 seconds for the oil light to go out.


There ya go then.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I understand what you were trying to say. I was introducing another ancillary topic about ADBV's. Obviously yours cannot serve to keep the filter full. Not a snowball chance in July. You don't need one since it cannot in any way serve that purpose.

Then why is it there?? (

)

A setup like the V6 Tacoma (filter base down) needs an ADBV more than anything ... it's the basic reason ADBVs were invented in the first place.

If it didn't have any ADBV, it would be like starting it with a bone dry filter every day. This is not the case, as shown above. The ADBV will probably not keep the center core of the filter filled with oil, but it should (if working correctly) keep the void between the can and center core filled with oil when the engine is not running. This seems to be the case with my experiences.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
This verifies that the ADBV does NOT allow all the oil to drain out of the filter - even if it sits for a day or two.


Yet there would be no need for one since the MAJORITY of your filter is empty except what won't pass through the "oil bath air cleaner of high efficiency". Your centerwell empties and your filter exterior empties to the point of the amount that the oil column can overcome the inability for air to infiltrate the "oil bath air cleaner of high efficiency". I mean that vacuum isn't formed "in a vaccum"

It has to be from centerwell air ..but only to a certain point.

Don't you agree? It doesn't keep the filter anywhere near full, correct?

 

[river_rat]

Like-a-this??

 

[sdude2k2000]

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
This verifies that the ADBV does NOT allow all the oil to drain out of the filter - even if it sits for a day or two.


Yet there would be no need for one since the MAJORITY of your filter is empty except what won't pass through the "oil bath air cleaner of high efficiency". Your centerwell empties and your filter exterior empties to the point of the amount that the oil column can overcome the inability for air to infiltrate the "oil bath air cleaner of high efficiency". I mean that vacuum isn't formed "in a vaccum"

It has to be from centerwell air ..but only to a certain point.

Don't you agree? It doesn't keep the filter anywhere near full, correct?


I think the filter stays fuller than you are imagining - just the fact the the oil pressure light goes out in 1/2 second once the new filter has been used and the engine is started 2 days later vs. 3 seconds with a bone dry filter upon initial start up after a filter change tells me there isn't much air in the system once the filter has been filled once.

It's hard to say also how much oil actually evacuates from the oil passages, bearings, etc as it sits ... that could be dependent on specific oiling system design by engine. Very well could be that the oil passages in the engine connected to the outlet side of the filter don't drain and remain full ... if so, that would help the filter retain the oil in the can.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
Like-a-this??

I think this phenomenon is dependent on a lot of things associated with the engine's oiling system design. Maybe Toyota has design the oiling system so it doesn't "self drain" ... I'd think it would be a design concern considering the orientation of the oil filter.

Obviously, from reports on this board, some engines are way more sensitive to 'dry start up' noises than others.

Hey ... that's a pretty tight oil pump there river_rat ... no dripping indicated.

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Hey ... that's a pretty tight oil pump there river_rat ... not dripping.

Dude...it's a 'Yota! Parts actually fit

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Hey ... that's a pretty tight oil pump there river_rat ... not dripping.

Dude...it's a 'Yota! Parts actually fit

Yeah, but the bearings are a lot tighter than that drawing shows!

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Like-a-this??


Not likely. Take a regular ADBV filter from any car. Get your bath from the oil above it (vertical orientation) ..then drain it upside down on your drain pan thingie with the little crescent lip there just for putting the filter on/in and let it sit. It's now in the position of Busi's filter and was recently full of "hot oil". Leave it on for a long time ..a short time ..whatever. Put it in a container and then hit the nail through it (and prop the ADBV open) and see how much volume you get. Pour it into a measuring cup. Now take the new filter ..and pour in new oil (that you've put into another measuring cup) and add until the centerwell is full (might take a little time)..just to assure some tension would prevent it from filling ...carefully depress the ADBV to assure that air can escape.

See what the difference is.


I'm just doing a drive by here. Carry on!!

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

I'm just doing a drive by here. Carry on!!

is Tommy Chong in the car with you?

How a filter drains when off an engine vs. how it does when on an engine can be totally two different scenarios. Like I said above, not every engine setup is necessarily going to 'self drain' the entire oiling system and filter every time you shut the engine off.

When I see that the oil pressure light only stays on 1/2 second after start up if the truck sits for a day or two, vs. 3 seconds after an oil & filter change (bone dry filter in this case) ... that pretty much tells me the oil lines/passages and filter come no where near draining completely every time I let it sit a day or two.

 

[river_rat]

Here is all I was saying...even if the filter was empty (which it will be eventually, I think - because if you turn a filter upside down it will almost all drain out.)

The media will stay saturated basically forever and saturated media lets oil start through quicker than new, dry media.

As the oil hits the can it will not likely fill the can before getting some oil out to the bearings. There will be air with it for few seconds, but the bearings will be oiled, and the air oil will turn off the oil light quicker than if there das a completely dry media. ( I found out in my basement tests that Media holds a LOT of oil--believe me)

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
Here is all I was saying...even if the filter was empty (which it will be eventually, I think - because if you turn a filter upside down it will almost all drain out.)


How a filter drains off the car, and how the filter drains on the car might be two different senarios based on the configuration\design of the engine's oiling system and location\orientation of the filter.

Mabye next time I change oil on the Tacoma, I'll punch a hole in both the side and the top, and let the filter drain into the Tacoma's built-in "funnel" so I can catch the drainage. Then measure it against what it takes to fill the filter. Might be an interesting little test.

Originally Posted By: river_rat
The media will stay saturated basically forever and saturated media lets oil start through quicker than new, dry media.

As the oil hits the can it will not likely fill the can before getting some oil out to the bearings. There will be air with it for few seconds, but the bearings will be oiled, and the air oil will turn off the oil light quicker than if there das a completely dry media. ( I found out in my basement tests that Media holds a LOT of oil--believe me)


If the oil does drain out of the filter due to whatever reasons, and to the extent you described, then yes I agree that what you've shown is probably pretty accurate representation of what happens on start up.

 

[labman]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
Here is all I was saying...even if the filter was empty (which it will be eventually, I think - because if you turn a filter upside down it will almost all drain out.)

The media will stay saturated basically forever and saturated media lets oil start through quicker than new, dry media.

As the oil hits the can it will not likely fill the can before getting some oil out to the bearings. There will be air with it for few seconds, but the bearings will be oiled, and the air oil will turn off the oil light quicker than if there das a completely dry media. ( I found out in my basement tests that Media holds a LOT of oil--believe me)

Found your little picture interesting. I have always viewed thread down filter mounts as dumb. I find my self wondering how the air ever gets out of one? I don't remember ever seeing any figures, but I doubt air is very soluble in oil even at the highest operating pressures. On start up, as oil was pumped into the filter, the air would compress allowing most of the filter to fill with oil, perhaps covering most of the media. As the oil pressure varied, the air would expand and contact, but stay in the top. At shutdown, the air would expand pushing the oil out one way or another. With a good ADBV, it might even fill some of the oil passages with air. Thus on every start up, the filter would have to fill as the air compressed under building air pressure.

On my truck, the thread end is a t 2 and the dome at 8. Thus most of the air should go out the outlet with some left in the top part of the filter.

My car has the Ecotec with the canister filter. If I remember correctly, both the inlet and outlet are at the bottom and the bypass in the lid at the top. Thus combining the stupidity of thread end down and dome end bypass.

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
If the oil does drain out of the filter due to whatever reasons, and to the extent you described, then yes I agree that what you've shown is probably pretty accurate representation of what happens on start up.

The picture applied in a worst case scenario with an in-use (not new) filter.
Only in the case of a bad ADBV or long term storage I think.

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: labman
I find my self wondering how the air ever gets out of one? I don't remember ever seeing any figures, but I doubt air is very soluble in oil even at the highest operating pressures.

I imagine there is always a little in the top, but if you've ever power purged a hot-water radiator system, you can blow most of the air down hill--up to maybe three stories--where very little of it disolves in the water.
If I had a plexiglas filter I'd say for sure. (How cool would that be?)

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: labman

Found your little picture interesting. I have always viewed thread down filter mounts as dumb. I find my self wondering how the air ever gets out of one? I don't remember ever seeing any figures, but I doubt air is very soluble in oil even at the highest operating pressures. On start up, as oil was pumped into the filter, the air would compress allowing most of the filter to fill with oil, perhaps covering most of the media. As the oil pressure varied, the air would expand and contact, but stay in the top. At shutdown, the air would expand pushing the oil out one way or another. With a good ADBV, it might even fill some of the oil passages with air. Thus on every start up, the filter would have to fill as the air compressed under building air pressure.


I highly doubt any air is ever trapped inside the filter dome on a vertical, base down mounted oil filter for more than a few seconds after startup. The incoming rush and turbulence of the oil flowing through the filter will easily evacuate any trapped air that might be inside the can. Look at the direction the oil enters the filter ... through the holes in the base, and then the oil shoots up along the sides of the can around its whole circumference at a pretty good velocity. If there is by chance ever a small pocket of air trapped in the dome, then obviously it's not effected by the oil flow (otherwise it would be washed away quickly), and therefore has no impact or bearing on the function of the filter.