Best action shoot-out film ? honors goes to Heat IMHO..

wpod said:
Any movie that shows a mini gun in use, I really like mini guns for some reason.
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So, then. Terminator 2 is on your list. Bravo.

I know there was one in Predator, but i didn't like how the character was freaking out while shooting it.

Arnold, even though those things are battery-operated.. had much more mastery of it in T2: Judgement Day.. of which, only 1 and 2 were relevant. 3-6 (Rise Of The Machines, Salvation, Genesis, Dark Fate) were anywhere from horrible to okay timewasters.

Here is another. A touch of comedy, too..



 
Some might think the ending of Bonny & Clyde in, "The Highwaymen" was a bit excessive. But even they realized that it was the ONLY way they were ever going to stop a Ford V-8.
 
gmh101358 said:
The Al Pacino, Val Kilmer, Robert DeNiro .....the shootout scene does what no other movie comes close to.....gunfire is loud! The scene has to be L.E. worst nightmare.....Ive read the two in the North Hollywood shootout based thier bank heist off the move Heat
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I have to agree. It is the one I remeber from all the movies I watched...
 
billt460 said:
If you buy the "Heat" DVD, it comes with an extra DVD that shows how they made the film. It was quite the undertaking. All the actors had to go through intensive firearms training. And when they filmed the shootout scene, they used several hundred rounds of blank ammunition per take.

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This, I did not know. May make me like it more....

Fun fact: This the only movie (I wont even mention the other one) that Al Pacino and Robert De Niro were in the same scene at once, twice. Only twice. Once, at a restaurant, where De Niro really killed the scene and Pacino was "okay".. De Niro plays the hardened, I don't care criminal perfect for that kind of suit-wearing, heavy weaponry criminal element depicted in the film.. and, of course, the end. Great tune by Moby at the end too, called God moving over the face of the waters.

If they actually trained and at least attempted some degree of realism, that makes me like it more. I believe I saw at least one short M-16 with film clips.
 
billt460 said:
I should have mentioned that I believe it is only the Blu-Ray version, that contains the bonus DVD, "The Making Of Heat".
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I may have to check it out.

One more time.. I didn't really like the movie Heat. Nothing to do with Michael Mann, I don't care who directs a good movie. Al Pacino, the toughened, burnt-out cop.. didnt really capture it for me. Looked cartoonish, "GIVE ME WHAT YA GOT!". Val Kilmer.. abusive to wife at home, did anyone catch that part. Why was that in there?

Type-cast parolee black man. First to get shot. Not sure I liked that.

Sadomasochistic part of De Niro's crew, killing a young Lady Of The Night in hotel room. Why? Why was that in there?

Part of De Niro's crew, phoning De Niro from a pay phone while he is supposedly being parallel chased. Seemed supremely... dumb.

Pacino TELLS De Niro he knows he us going to rob the bank and De Niro does it anyway.. not even selected another bank for strong arm robbery...

Maybe I'm too tough on movies, but I'd give it a 3 out of 5. More like 2.5 out of 5. It was OK.
 
schwinney said:
I may have to check it out.

One more time.. I didn't really like the movie Heat. Nothing to do with Michael Mann, I don't care who directs a good movie. Al Pacino, the toughened, burnt-out cop.. didnt really capture it for me. Looked cartoonish, "GIVE ME WHAT YA GOT!". Val Kilmer.. abusive to wife at home, did anyone catch that part. Why was that in there?

Type-cast parolee black man. First to get shot. Not sure I liked that.

Sadomasochistic part of De Niro's crew, killing a young Lady Of The Night in hotel room. Why? Why was that in there?

Part of De Niro's crew, phoning De Niro from a pay phone while he is supposedly being parallel chased. Seemed supremely... dumb.

Pacino TELLS De Niro he knows he us going to rob the bank and De Niro does it anyway.. not even selected another bank for strong arm robbery...
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These guys were heavily armed, violent criminals. Why do you think it was so out of the ordinary, that one of them had a hot temper that was directed at his cheating wife? Who in all likelihood was only with him because he took all the risk, while she sat home, scratched her butt, and got the reward.

And as far as the black guy, what difference would it have made if he had been white? You turn on a television today, and you'd swear the black population of this country was 83%, and not 13%. I admire Michael Mann for not falling for all the politically correct Hollywood crap. He casted the characters the way he wanted them cast. Not to be politically correct, or appease anyone's social continuity.

Waingro's, character (Kevin Gage), was a violent, masochistic killer. He murdered the armored car guard, who was zero threat to him or anyone else. So why wouldn't he kill a hooker? He had a thirst for violence that could only be quenched by cold blooded murder. None of these guys were ex Boy Scouts...... Including Pacino's character, Vince Hanna, who's personal life was a train wreck.

Pacino told DeNiro he knew he was going to rob A BANK.... Not THAT BANK. And DeNiro, (Neil McCauley), could not simply, "select another bank". They knew that bank had an over $12 million dollar cash load on that particular day.

They also intercepted that banks computerized burglar alarm system, and video cameras the night before, to be shut down minutes before they arrived. Besides, DeNiro didn't know they were set up by Waingro, until after the fact. Otherwise the shootout never would have happened. They would have pulled the whole thing off without firing a single shot.
 
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billt460 said:
These guys were heavily armed, violent criminals. Why do you think it was so out of the ordinary, that one of them had a hot temper that was directed at his cheating wife? Who in all likelihood was only with him because he took all the risk, while she sat home, scratched her butt, and got the reward.

And as far as the black guy, what difference would it have made if he had been white? You turn on a television today, and you'd swear the black population of this country was 83%, and not 13%. I admire Michael Mann for not falling for all the politically correct Hollywood crap. He casted the characters the way he wanted them cast. Not to be politically correct, or appease anyone's social continuity.

Waingro's, character (Kevin Gage), was a violent, masochistic killer. He murdered the armored car guard, who was zero threat to him or anyone else. So why wouldn't he kill a hooker? He had a thirst for violence that could only be quenched by cold blooded murder. None of these guys were ex Boy Scouts...... Including Pacino's character, Vince Hanna, who's personal life was a train wreck.

Pacino told DeNiro he knew he was going to rob A BANK.... Not THAT BANK. And DeNiro, (Neil McCauley), could not simply, "select another bank". They knew that bank had an over $12 million dollar cash load on that particular day.

They also intercepted that banks computerized burglar alarm system, and video cameras the night before, to be shut down minutes before they arrived. Besides, DeNiro didn't know they were set up by Waingro, until after the fact. Otherwise the shootout never would have happened. They would have pulled the whole thing off without firing a single shot.
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The way you're describing it, the movie is a masterpiece.

 
Agreeing on the "best" action movie shoot out is no different than deciding the "best" oil or filter ... IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!

I would concur that many of the movies mentioned are stellar in their own right, all for the described reasons.
I will add one more, perhaps not the "best", but certainly a top 10: Den of Thieves
 
dnewton3 said:
Agreeing on the "best" action movie shoot out is no different than deciding the "best" oil or filter ... IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!

I would concur that many of the movies mentioned are stellar in their own right, all for the described reasons.
I will add one more, perhaps not the "best", but certainly a top 10: Den of Thieves
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Den Of Thieves was "ok" I will say. Gerard Butler is a beast.

I will re-watch Heat, bilt460 may be changing my opinion...
 
schwinney said:
I may have to check it out.

One more time.. I didn't really like the movie Heat. Nothing to do with Michael Mann, I don't care who directs a good movie. Al Pacino, the toughened, burnt-out cop.. didnt really capture it for me. Looked cartoonish, "GIVE ME WHAT YA GOT!". Val Kilmer.. abusive to wife at home, did anyone catch that part. Why was that in there?

Type-cast parolee black man. First to get shot. Not sure I liked that.

Sadomasochistic part of De Niro's crew, killing a young Lady Of The Night in hotel room. Why? Why was that in there?

Part of De Niro's crew, phoning De Niro from a pay phone while he is supposedly being parallel chased. Seemed supremely... dumb.

Pacino TELLS De Niro he knows he us going to rob the bank and De Niro does it anyway.. not even selected another bank for strong arm robbery...

Maybe I'm too tough on movies, but I'd give it a 3 out of 5. More like 2.5 out of 5. It was OK.
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That's an odd critique for perhaps the most well done expert film of the entire gangster action genre. That's certainly on the short list of the very best films.

I'd suggest you sit and rewatch it without distraction. It's a masterpiece. @billt460 nails the response I would echo in post #53. I'll add some input.

First, this was filmed pre-wokism. Mann successfully showed a near unparalleled real look into this violent world, capturing incredible humanity and character development using very little screen time for each of many "major characters."

The black ex-con parolee. He was black, yes. Not unusual, considering disproportionate over-representation of black male felons, esp. in Los Angeles. Why is that unusual? He was also used to demonstrate a point about the abuse and racism in the system where his corrupt boss was taking a cut, which frustrated him right back into a life of crime. I bet that character only had 3 minutes of screen time. Yet you know a tremendous amount about him, and the actor did a stellar job.

I don't understand the critique about DeNiro's partner warning him from a pay phone. That would have been common in the era, b/c pay phones were anonymous and therefore essentially secure. This also set the stage for DeNiro to tap the black ex-con for the job, setting a course of action that got the black guy killed. "You in or out, let's go, right now." We see his wife, for maybe 1 minute of air time. But we know the entire back story and her pain from the discussion of how proud she was of him, only to see he died in a bank heist on the news... Her 1 minute of screen time, tells a lifetime of powerful backstory in expert fashion.

Waingro's violent streak was used repeatedly to illustrate a point about his violence and unpredictability, and mental instability. He needlessly murdered the guard, which forced the crew to kill the survivors and caused a major side story, which was the cat and mouse between the crew and Waingro, hired to try to get the crew while they were trying to get him. We see that he tortured and murdered the Hispanic guy and his wife. Mann really punched it home with just how violent he was, and the hooker scene showed his derangement. I'm not understanding the critique on showing just how demented violent he was in killing the hooker. Oh, and this connected Pacino's character to the bad guys, b/c if you remember Vince had to show up for the homicide. We got to see the violence of street life, and the real character and humanity between Vince and the dead girls mom.

Then you have Val Kilmer's character and Ashley Judd. Yes, he has a violent temper, and is abusive. It's not a one way street, as Judd blew all his money and was carrying on an affair. It was a mutually abusive relationship, which probably represents at least a large majority of marital situations. The interactions with DeNiro and Judd when he catches her, and later her moral dilemmas with turning in Kilmer, but then ultimately protecting him from the police trap, are all exceptionally well written and acted, showing her struggling with her own moral dilemmas. I cannot fathom a critique on these relationships as so expertly and realistically portrayed.

DeNiro knows Pacino is generically on to him and following him. It's a cat and mouse. They "warn" each other. Pacino wasn't telling DeNiro anything he didn't already know, that yeah they are following his moves. DeNiro then expertly dumps the tail, and disappears. DeNiro and his crew got plans for a bank. Pacino did not know which one. Did you also see the scene where DeNiro lured Pacino's crew out into the open to get pictures of Pacino's crew?

Rewatch the film. You missed a lot and seem to not really understand it.

This whole ecosystem and interactions were exceptionally well done with many important side stories, which is alarmingly lacking in modern "paint by the numbers" movies. In Heat, there are probably 10 important side stories.
* Vince's job stress has destroyed his marriage, and his daughter is psychotic from neglect.
* DeNiro is lonely, and just wants one more score to disappear.
* Kilmer has conflicts with the job, his neglectful cheating wife, his temper, etc.
* Waingro is in a cat and mouse game, both chasing and being chased by DeNiro's crew. He's hired by Van Zant who is trying to double cross DeNiro's crew. DeNiro's crew wants revenge on Waingro for his bad behavior.
* Corrupt banker guy Van Zant that had the bonds stolen, and his attempts to double cross DeNiro and DeNiro's motivations to get him.
* Black ex-con and his wife and their side story.
* Dead hooker, her mom's pain, that street life, Vince's engagement with that as it connects Waingro's behavior, which also shows how terrible his job is.
* Trijo, his motivations and ultimate demise with his wife, and mutual loyalty of DeNiro.
* Motivations, thrill, and loyalty of DeNiro's crew, particularly Tom Sizemore.
* Voght's character, who acts as a fence and gathers information, gets fake IDs, etc. is obviously well connected, etc.
* The gang's doctor/surgeon, played so well by Jeremy Piven. Probably 1 minute of screen time, but impressive character development.
* Vince's character, dealing with the underground, and ignoring their crimes (car thefts, dog fighting) to get information on major crimes (this highlights the dirty morally hard work of this career), and meeting with actor/rapper Tone Loc in a great short role.
* Natalie Portman expertly plays the young troubled daughter, in a role of a kid with abusive drug addicted cheating or neglectful parents.
* Vince's wife, who struggles with addiction and is cheating b/c she feels neglected, not understanding the stress of Vince's job. Just some pampered bored housewife, a terrible parent, addicted to pills and cheating...

On top of this, we are treated to among the best heist and action scenes on cinema. The very creative bank truck heist, ramming it with a stolen tow truck to flip it and disorient the guards with a crash and a bomb. Several excellent gun fights, including the creative one across the runway at the end. And of course, the major bank heist scene. It's a total masterpiece.

It's a miracle to fit all of that in so expertly well with a short run time of under 3 hours.
 
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CharlesInCharge said:
That's an odd critique for perhaps the most well done expert film of the entire gangster action genre. That's certainly on the short list of the very best films.

I'd suggest you sit and rewatch it without distraction. It's a masterpiece. @billt460 nails the response I would echo in post #53. I'll add some input.

First, this was filmed pre-wokism. Mann successfully showed a near unparalleled real look into this violent world, capturing incredible humanity and character development using very little screen time for each of many "major characters."

The black ex-con parolee. He was black, yes. Not unusual, considering disproportionate over-representation of black male felons, esp. in Los Angeles. Why is that unusual? He was also used to demonstrate a point about the abuse and racism in the system where his corrupt boss was taking a cut, which frustrated him right back into a life of crime. I bet that character only had 3 minutes of screen time. Yet you know a tremendous amount about him, and the actor did a stellar job.

I don't understand the critique about DeNiro's partner warning him from a pay phone. That would have been common in the era, b/c pay phones were anonymous and therefore essentially secure. This also set the stage for DeNiro to tap the black ex-con for the job, setting a course of action that got the black guy killed. "You in or out, let's go, right now." We see his wife, for maybe 1 minute of air time. But we know the entire back story and her pain from the discussion of how proud she was of him, only to see he died in a bank heist on the news... Her 1 minute of screen time, tells a lifetime of powerful backstory in expert fashion.

Waingro's violent streak was used repeatedly to illustrate a point about his violence and unpredictability, and mental instability. He needlessly murdered the guard, which forced the crew to kill the survivors and caused a major side story, which was the cat and mouse between the crew and Waingro, hired to try to get the crew while they were trying to get him. We see that he tortured and murdered the Hispanic guy and his wife. Mann really punched it home with just how violent he was, and the hooker scene showed his derangement. I'm not understanding the critique on showing just how demented violent he was in killing the hooker. Oh, and this connected Pacino's character to the bad guys, b/c if you remember Vince had to show up for the homicide. We got to see the violence of street life, and the real character and humanity between Vince and the dead girls mom.

Then you have Val Kilmer's character and Ashley Judd. Yes, he has a violent temper, and is abusive. It's not a one way street, as Judd blew all his money and was carrying on an affair. It was a mutually abusive relationship, which probably represents at least a large majority of marital situations. The interactions with DeNiro and Judd when he catches her, and later her moral dilemmas with turning in Kilmer, but then ultimately protecting him from the police trap, are all exceptionally well written and acted, showing her struggling with her own moral dilemmas. I cannot fathom a critique on these relationships as so expertly and realistically portrayed.

DeNiro knows Pacino is generically on to him and following him. It's a cat and mouse. They "warn" each other. Pacino wasn't telling DeNiro anything he didn't already know, that yeah they are following his moves. DeNiro then expertly dumps the tail, and disappears. DeNiro and his crew got plans for a bank. Pacino did not know which one. Did you also see the scene where DeNiro lured Pacino's crew out into the open to get pictures of Pacino's crew?

Rewatch the film. You missed a lot and seem to not really understand it.

This whole ecosystem and interactions were exceptionally well done with many important side stories, which is alarmingly lacking in modern "paint by the numbers" movies. In Heat, there are probably 10 important side stories.
* Vince's job stress has destroyed his marriage, and his daughter is psychotic from neglect.
* DeNiro is lonely, and just wants one more score to disappear.
* Kilmer has conflicts with the job, his neglectful cheating wife, his temper, etc.
* Waingro is in a cat and mouse game, both chasing and being chased by DeNiro's crew. He's hired by Van Zant who is trying to double cross DeNiro's crew. DeNiro's crew wants revenge on Waingro for his bad behavior.
* Corrupt banker guy Van Zant that had the bonds stolen, and his attempts to double cross DeNiro and DeNiro's motivations to get him.
* Black ex-con and his wife and their side story.
* Dead hooker, her mom's pain, that street life, Vince's engagement with that as it connects Waingro's behavior, which also shows how terrible his job is.
* Trijo, his motivations and ultimate demise with his wife, and mutual loyalty of DeNiro.
* Motivations, thrill, and loyalty of DeNiro's crew, particularly Tom Sizemore.
* Voght's character, who acts as a fence and gathers information, gets fake IDs, etc. is obviously well connected, etc.
* The gang's doctor/surgeon, played so well by Jeremy Piven. Probably 1 minute of screen time, but impressive character development.
* Vince's character, dealing with the underground, and ignoring their crimes (car thefts, dog fighting) to get information on major crimes (this highlights the dirty morally hard work of this career), and meeting with actor/rapper Tone Loc in a great short role.
* Natalie Portman expertly plays the young troubled daughter, in a role of a kid with abusive drug addicted cheating or neglectful parents.
* Vince's wife, who struggles with addiction and is cheating b/c she feels neglected, not understanding the stress of Vince's job. Just some pampered bored housewife, a terrible parent, addicted to pills and cheating...

On top of this, we are treated to among the best heist and action scenes on cinema. The very creative bank truck heist, ramming it with a stolen tow truck to flip it and disorient the guards with a crash and a bomb. Several excellent gun fights, including the creative one across the runway at the end. And of course, the major bank heist scene. It's a total masterpiece.

It's a miracle to fit all of that in so expertly well with a short run time of under 3 hours.
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I may have to re-watch it. A couple of points to consider:

1. The call, from a pay phone. I am not a pursuit expert, and I know things were different in.. when did this come out, 1994? 1995? I was either 12 or 13. Okay.. seems "odd" because apparently during a pursuit. That seems strange to me. Like they wouldnt be converging.. or, if your point is, they were and he stopped to call before they did.

I will re-evaluate this point.

Now, Waingro's character.. he reminds me the most of Mr. French in The Departed. A total psycho. I did not like these characters, but.. I may see your point.

Mr_arnold_french_the_departed.webp


Now the black ex-con.. I think I would still have to call it "type-cast" because, it could have been any one of them that got shot through the window.. and wasn't he the driver, and they had to move to another car? Your points about "It wouldn't be uncommon".. what I get out of it is, a life of crime doesnt pay.

I can appreciate the drama aspect, however, and I'd leave a dishwashing job too lol.

I will re-evaluate.

I may be watching soon, when I get area to myself..
 
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