Best 0w20 to resist fuel dilution in Honda 1.5 TGDI engine? And use in Honda J35 V6s?

[4strokes]

Rented a 2021 Accord with the 1.5. Drove it for a week, mostly long highway trips, gained a quart of oil on the dipstick

It smelled of gas, and if it were my car, I'd have that oil out of there in a nanosecond. To be replaced with something more robust.

Interesting I have a 21 CRV 1.5 Turbo with oil changes every 4000 miles at that point the level on the dipstick is up maybe 1/8" and I'm not smelling gas in the oil. That's a mix of highway and urban driving.

 

[OVERKILL]

The low tension piston rings are partly due to that too.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/8-common-2013-2017-9th-gen-honda-accord-problems-100000-miles/

Everybody uses low tension rings, if we could point a finger at that it would be much easier. That was not one of the things Honda mentioned when they acknowledged the issue and tried to program their way around it, lol.

Lots of low tension rings in port injected engines that don't have dilution issues either, keep that in mind

 

[OVERKILL]

So you're saying Honda uses different engines in other markets? The 1.5 DI Turbo in Europe has looser tolerances* than the one in the US?
View attachment 122491

*clearances

It is shockingly frequent how often those two get mixed up.

 

[OVERKILL]

Interesting I have a 21 CRV 1.5 Turbo with oil changes every 4000 miles at that point the level on the dipstick is up maybe 1/8" and I'm not smelling gas in the oil. That's a mix of highway and urban driving.

You may not smell gas in your oil. Get a UOA from OAI/Polaris, that'll tell you how much fuel is in the oil.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

The mechanism is that due to high compression ratios used on GDI and TGDI mills, enrichment to control knock plays a significant role, one that has further flexibility with the ability to change the timing of the charge. This is separate from ignition timing manipulation for the same effect. These things are used together and one of the reasons you can run a much higher compression ratio with a DI mill than you can port injected, and also get away with lower octane.

They of course use knock-sensor feedback to "tune" this process and, if the ECM has the requisite adaption strategy(ies) it may back off enrichment if it isn't observing knock, but this of course requires that there is sufficient room/movement in the adaptives table to allow for this claw-back of fuel in response to absence of knock events. We have seen some UOA's with DI engines where there appears to be evidence of this happening.

But, as I noted, there are plenty of caveats and it may do absolutely nothing with this engine.

I have some advice FWIW about these diluter GDIs from a trusted , retired this year, Honda Service manager + his long time technician who have been at the same Dealership for over 15 years or more. Bought two Accords from them and used them for services when I was in no shape to do certain jobs. These guys helped me milk along a 2002 Accord (we kept 18 years) with automatic transaxle (when that year's were failing in alarming numbers) so I tend to take their advice. They do not know it all and are not magicians but are very happy to help friends. The little advice they gave me seems to be of some help. Technician told me he owns a 2018 Accord 1.5 engine (same as in my 2018) and he has tried it all. He is finally using high test 91to93 octane fuel, Mobil 1 0w20 or 0w30 oil at 3500mi oci, and driving on the short around the house trips with transmission in the "sport" mode and he turns off the econo button as well when he leaves house except for log highway drives. He changed the PCV valve and the spark plus early. He is also doing the chemical can spray cleaner shot into the induction system down stream of the mass flow meter about once to twice a year unless he puts a lot of mileage on his. Changes his oil about a day or so after the chemshot cleaning. That is about all he told me we can do. He is also contemplating installing an oil/fuel catch can but says that will be his last resort as you have to watch them real close to prevent them filling up + they mean instant warranty void.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

How many quarts do they take?

3.0 to 3.5 max

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

Anyone can tell you to run a 30 weight oil, but they aren't going to pay your repair bills when Honda denies your warranty claim.
That's been beat to death and I've posted the owner's manuals several times. There is no SAE 30 recommended nor authorized by Honda in the USA for these vehicles.
OH, and "chances are nothing will happen" can be countered with a "what if it does and you blew your warranty?"

Honda is not going to deny a claim bc of oil grade.

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

I have some advice FWIW about these diluter GDIs from a trusted , retired this year, Honda Service manager + his long time technician who have been at the same Dealership for over 15 years or more. Bought two Accords from them and used them for services when I was in no shape to do certain jobs. These guys helped me milk along a 2002 Accord (we kept 18 years) with automatic transaxle (when that year's were failing in alarming numbers) so I tend to take their advice. They do not know it all and are not magicians but are very happy to help friends. The little advice they gave me seems to be of some help. Technician told me he owns a 2018 Accord 1.5 engine (same as in my 2018) and he has tried it all. He is finally using high test 91to93 octane fuel, Mobil 1 0w20 or 0w30 oil at 3500mi oci, and driving on the short around the house trips with transmission in the "sport" mode and he turns off the econo button as well when he leaves house except for log highway drives. He changed the PCV valve and the spark plus early. He is also doing the chemical can spray cleaner shot into the induction system down stream of the mass flow meter about once to twice a year unless he puts a lot of mileage on his. Changes his oil about a day or so after the chemshot cleaning. That is about all he told me we can do. He is also contemplating installing an oil/fuel catch can but says that will be his last resort as you have to watch them real close to prevent them filling up + they mean instant warranty void.

I was a tech at Honda. I purchased a 2018 accord touring with the 1.5 liter on purpose. I PDI the car and installed a mishimoto catch can on it that I bought after I ordered the car. I ram the factory oil for 2800 miles. I could smell the fuel in the cabin. I drained the catch can into a cup, it was all fuel. I sent that oil sample off to blackstone. It came back with 1.8% fuel. I filled the crankcase up with Mobil 1 EP 0w20. I would get the fuel smell in the car after a few thousand miles. Checked the catch can, full of fuel. I then switched to 93 octane after 5,000 miles. Didn’t get the fuel smell anymore. Catch can empty when checked. Sent the oil to blackstone, came back at 0.8% fuel. Blackstone said I can run the oil to 8,000 miles. I ran it to
10,000 miles OCI and sent several oil samples to blackstone, came back at 0.1% fuel. I decided to switch the car to a ACEA C3 rated oil oil due to the fact in other countries they call for 0w30, 5w30 or 0w40 ACEA C3 rated for the same engine. I now run Mobil 1 ESP 0w30 since 20,000 miles. I now have 160,000 miles on car. I changed spark plugs at 50,000, coolant at 60,000 CVT fluid 30,000 and repeat that interval. I also pulled the intake manifold off at 80,000 miles to check for carbon on valves, that was clear. I don’t run any fuel additives, never will as it does absolutely nothing for DI engines, fuel never touches valves. I haven’t had the fuel smell
since the switch to 93 octane and have never had the oil level rise due to fuel. Key is to not let the engine idle unnecessarily. I only idle to idle down turbo and that’s it. idle like at red lights and stop signs is normal. I have seen a whole lot of these 1.5t with north of 150,000 miles with not one issue. It’s the nature of DI and DI turbo engines to have some dilution.

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

3.0 to 3.5 max

4 quarts.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

I was a tech at Honda. I purchased a 2018 accord touring with the 1.5 liter on purpose. I PDI the car and installed a mishimoto catch can on it that I bought after I ordered the car. I ram the factory oil for 2800 miles. I could smell the fuel in the cabin. I drained the catch can into a cup, it was all fuel. I sent that oil sample off to blackstone. It came back with 1.8% fuel. I filled the crankcase up with Mobil 1 EP 0w20. I would get the fuel smell in the car after a few thousand miles. Checked the catch can, full of fuel. I then switched to 93 octane after 5,000 miles. Didn’t get the fuel smell anymore. Catch can empty when checked. Sent the oil to blackstone, came back at 0.8% fuel. Blackstone said I can run the oil to 8,000 miles. I ran it to
10,000 miles OCI and sent several oil samples to blackstone, came back at 0.1% fuel. I decided to switch the car to a ACEA C3 rated oil oil due to the fact in other countries they call for 0w30, 5w30 or 0w40 ACEA C3 rated for the same engine. I now run Mobil 1 ESP 0w30 since 20,000 miles. I now have 160,000 miles on car. I changed spark plugs at 50,000, coolant at 60,000 CVT fluid 30,000 and repeat that interval. I also pulled the intake manifold off at 80,000 miles to check for carbon on valves, that was clear. I don’t run any fuel additives, never will as it does absolutely nothing for DI engines, fuel never touches valves. I haven’t had the fuel smell
since the switch to 93 octane and have never had the oil level rise due to fuel. Key is to not let the engine idle unnecessarily. I only idle to idle down turbo and that’s it. idle like at red lights and stop signs is normal. I have seen a whole lot of these 1.5t with north of 150,000 miles with not one issue. It’s the nature of DI and DI turbo engines to have some dilution.

thanks very much. I believe it all. Been reading some of your posts and have experienced and been told some of the same things you are sharing.
As I have posted. I am not happy about the situation. I bought her the car and paid it off ASAP. She absolutley wanted another Accord. Its the wife's favorite we have owned. Cant do anymore than you suggest which I am doing most of already. I dont expect a tragic failure. Anything can happen but I am not obsessed and worrying about it like I was at first. I guess I been lucky with this one as we live in a very hot climate and hardly ever see the level rise on the stick and never smell gas like some have reported. Thanks again for sharing your experience and knowledge. take care.

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

thanks very much. I believe it all. Been reading some of your posts and have experienced and been told some of the same things you are sharing.
As I have posted. I am not happy about the situation. I bought her the car and paid it off ASAP. She absolutley wanted another Accord. It’s the wife's favorite we have owned. Cant do anymore than you suggest which I am doing most of already. I dont expect a tragic failure. Anything can happen but I am not obsessed and worrying about it like I was at first. I guess I been lucky with this one as we live in a very hot climate and hardly ever see the level rise on the stick and never smell gas like some have reported. Thanks again for sharing your experience and knowledge. take care.

I love my accord. I live in very hot compare as well south Louisiana.

 

[OVERKILL]

I was a tech at Honda. I purchased a 2018 accord touring with the 1.5 liter on purpose. I PDI the car and installed a mishimoto catch can on it that I bought after I ordered the car. I ram the factory oil for 2800 miles. I could smell the fuel in the cabin. I drained the catch can into a cup, it was all fuel. I sent that oil sample off to blackstone. It came back with 1.8% fuel. I filled the crankcase up with Mobil 1 EP 0w20. I would get the fuel smell in the car after a few thousand miles. Checked the catch can, full of fuel. I then switched to 93 octane after 5,000 miles. Didn’t get the fuel smell anymore. Catch can empty when checked. Sent the oil to blackstone, came back at 0.8% fuel. Blackstone said I can run the oil to 8,000 miles. I ran it to
10,000 miles OCI and sent several oil samples to blackstone, came back at 0.1% fuel. I decided to switch the car to a ACEA C3 rated oil oil due to the fact in other countries they call for 0w30, 5w30 or 0w40 ACEA C3 rated for the same engine. I now run Mobil 1 ESP 0w30 since 20,000 miles. I now have 160,000 miles on car. I changed spark plugs at 50,000, coolant at 60,000 CVT fluid 30,000 and repeat that interval. I also pulled the intake manifold off at 80,000 miles to check for carbon on valves, that was clear. I don’t run any fuel additives, never will as it does absolutely nothing for DI engines, fuel never touches valves. I haven’t had the fuel smell
since the switch to 93 octane and have never had the oil level rise due to fuel. Key is to not let the engine idle unnecessarily. I only idle to idle down turbo and that’s it. idle like at red lights and stop signs is normal. I have seen a whole lot of these 1.5t with north of 150,000 miles with not one issue. It’s the nature of DI and DI turbo engines to have some dilution.

Big problem is you sent it to Blackstone, they don't measure fuel, it's inferred (badly) from flashpoint. You need to use a lab that uses GC to get a proper fuel % figure. There are several of them, probably the most popular on here are Polaris/OAI.

 

[billt460]

3.0 to 3.5 max

That, along with a severe case of fuel dilution, (+1 quart), is a recipe for disaster. You're looking at at least 33% fuel diluted oil, that was water thin to begin with, when they poured it in.

Crankshaft bearings and connecting rods just have to love that. Especially when you add a turbo, and pack in a bunch of boost.... And Honda is pawning this off on the buying public as, "NORMAL"?

 

[CleanSump]

Honda is not going to deny a claim bc of oil grade.

Do you have that in writing?

 

[himemsys]

When I was looking at the European owner's manuals for the various model year CR-Vs, in addition to noting that they freely recommend/allow 30 grade oils (and in some cases 40 grade), they also require minimum 95 research octane fuel. I looked up a couple of sources and that appears to equate to 91 octane US.

 

[billt460]

When I was looking at the European owner's manuals for the various model year CR-Vs, in addition to noting that they freely recommend/allow 30 grade oils (and in some cases 40 grade), they also require minimum 95 research octane fuel. I looked up a couple of sources and that appears to equate to 91 octane US.

It's much the same with Toyota's overseas manuals for the 2.5 Camry in regards to oil. 0W-16 is only "recommended" here because of CAFE. In both Australia and Russia, Camry manuals state that oils up to and including 15W-40 viscosity can be used in the exact same engine.

 

[himemsys]

It's much the same with Toyota's overseas manuals for the 2.5 Camry in regards to oil. 0W-16 is only "recommended" here because of CAFE. In both Australia and Russia, Camry manuals state that oils up to and including 15W-40 oil can be used in the exact same engine.

I thought the part about the 95 RON was particularly relevant as we just had two Honda techs comment above that they use higher octane fuel to help combat fuel dilution. Yet in the US, Honda continues to recommend "87 octane or higher" while in Europe it's 95 RON (which appears to equate to 91 octane US).

 

[billt460]

I thought the part about the 95 RON was particularly relevant as we just had two Honda techs comment above that they use higher octane fuel to help combat fuel dilution. Yet in the US, Honda continues to recommend "87 octane or higher".

That is somewhat strange. I'm still of the belief this whole fuel / oil dilution problem can be better laid at the doorstep of too loose a fitting piston rings, than direct fuel injection, or too low of octane.

I'm not saying that direct injection might not play a part. But it's not the solid cornerstone on which this whole fuel dilution disaster was built on. Toyota, as well as other manufacturers all use DFI to some degree.

But they don't have dipsticks showing a 1 to 2 QUART overfill in as little as 2,000 miles directly because of fuel dilution. Honda on the other hand, is swimming in fuel dilution... Far MORE than any of the others.

The quickest and easiest way to the crankcase from the combustion chamber is past the piston rings. And in Honda's they're all loose as a goose.

 

[kschachn]

Anyone can tell you to run a 30 weight oil, but they aren't going to pay your repair bills when Honda denies your warranty claim.
That's been beat to death and I've posted the owner's manuals several times. There is no SAE 30 recommended nor authorized by Honda in the USA for these vehicles.
OH, and "chances are nothing will happen" can be countered with a "what if it does and you blew your warranty?"

Can you post the language from your owner’s manual or warranty booklet that says the new car warranty is predicated on a specific grade?

 

[PimTac]

It's much the same with Toyota's overseas manuals for the 2.5 Camry in regards to oil. 0W-16 is only "recommended" here because of CAFE. In both Australia and Russia, Camry manuals state that oils up to and including 15W-40 viscosity can be used in the exact same engine.

Penrite and Nulon both make a 0W-16 oil. Australia is moving up.