Bad Viscosity at 3500 Miles

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OneQuartLow

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Any thoughts on this analysis from Oil Analyzers Inc.?:

Jeep 4.0L 155K miles
Oil: Mobil1 10w30 TriSyn
Filter: Mobil1
Miles on oil: 3500
Miles on filter: 3500

Glycol: NEG
%Water: .15%
%Fuel: Viscosity @ 100C: 8.7
%Solids: TR

%OXD: 26.7
%NOX: 42.9
TBN: 8.3

Fe: 33
Cr: 1
Pb: 3
Cu: 2
Sn: 1
Al: 17
Ni: 1
Ag: 0
Mn: 0
Si: 17
B: 25
Na: 6
Mg: 1304
Ca: 1156
Ba: 0
P: 952
Zn: 1067
Mo: 11
Ti: 0
V: 0
Cd: 0

I changed the oil & filter after this analysis. It saw lots of short-haul driving which I'm assuming explains the water.

Terry gets the next sample.
smile.gif
 
Yikes, it sure thinned out a lot! I don't believe I've ever seen 10w30 thin out that much,
certainly not in 3500 miles. TBN is a bit lower than usual for Mobil 1 at this point too. Maybe
a bad batch of oil? Or could this engine be tougher on the oil than most?
 
The extreme piston slap may break it down faster.
wink.gif


Seriously though, I neglected to mention the sample was taken from runoff at the oil filter port. I'm guessing impurities at that location may have affected the particle counts but don't know. It's always raised a question in my mind so now I stick with the drain plug even if it means losing a pint at the halfway point.
 
Proper, consistent sampling procedures are of the utmost importance. Second, we cannot write a conclusive book on just one analysis, especially if the sampling procedures are less than ideal. Not too bad a sample, however, but let's see what follow on analysis looks like..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
 
George, could viscosity really be affected by where the sample was taken? I'm guessing there are a few places where it might be but is flow from the filter spinner one of them?

AntiChemist may have been a more appropriate screen name. :/
 
I'm not an expert on oil analysis by any means just yet, however I think that if a sample
is taken in not the best location, the wear metals and silicon might show higher, but the
viscosity should still be the same. Terry, George, am I correct?
 
There are so many variables, not only sample capture method, but lab procedures itself. That is why I mentioned "can't write a book from one analysis". Viscosity is subject to human error. I did not mean that sample location only could affect vis but that there are many factors.
That said, I would suspect any of the above before Mobil 1 shear-down as the Mobil one is not subject to shear down as there is nothing to shear. The oil is essentially a 30W base stock with very little VI improvers. VI improvers shear. 30W PAO does not shear. Mobil 1 30W goes out of vis grade due to dilution or some other factor like Murphy in the lab, etc.. Period.....
Let's see what the next analysis looks like...
George Morrison
 
I know from my experiences at work that its pretty important (as was mentioned) to get a consistant sample. I have used sample bottles that sucked the sample out of the dipstick tube at about an inch below the low level on the stick so you get the sample half way down which is recommended. Failing that you can clean the drain plug area real well and place the sample bottle in the oil pan. After you get a good stream which flushes out the area, shove it under the stream.

At least that's what I do. Probably better ideas here.
 
Thanks George, guys. I know sample taking is a big part of the analysis puzzle. The problem has been finding and sticking with a valid and reproducible method. I've either been hurried by daily schedule or haven't had a good way to sample between changes. Without a good procedure to follow it's been mostly seat-of-the-pants.

George, I'd love to see more information or discussions on obtaining accurate samples. What do your industrial clients do for their varied machines?

Thanks again!
 
How long after pulling the drain plug should you wait before taking the sample? 20 sec? 30 sec? More? On my last sample I probably waited about 15 seconds I would guess.
 
If this oil came form around the filter, I would have expected more like a 40 grade that a much lighter grade, since one normally see a lot of heavier compoonents come out of the filter.

ABout 5 seconds of streaming from the plug area before placing sample bottle under stream is the usual rule of thmub.

Try and take another sample and send it to Terry.

Has the engine temperature shown any signs of higher than normal behavior. The NOx and OX are elevated for 3k+ miles.
 
quote:
Originally posted by MolaKule:
...

Try and take another sample and send it to Terry.

Has the engine temperature shown any signs of higher than normal behavior. The NOx and OX are elevated for 3k+ miles.
Click to expand...
I'm sending for my sample kit this week.

Good catch on the temperature. Before the sample it had a problem with low-speed overheating. Evidently Chrysler/Jeep had a variety of fan sizes on the line in '94, but only one size of shroud. :grimace: After a radiator upgrade, fan clutch, and stat didn't help, the correct fan from a boneyard completely solved it.

David
 
For engine sump samples, we ideally want a "Mid-Stream" sample. Just as long as we don't get the first or last oil out of the crankcase, that is what is important. For samples drawn with a 'thief' (vacuum device made specifically for drawing samples), it is most important to do a 3 take. Draw a sample, dump, draw a sample, dump, then with the third draw, we have our sample. On samples where particle counts are going to be accomplished, it requires drawing then putting the top on, shaking, and repeating, then we have an appropriate sample for PC.
The key to sampling is "represenative" of what the system is seeing.. And cleanliness; every effort to prevent contamination of the sample. We are only capturing 4 ounces and every effort must be made to preserve the integrity of the sample.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
 
You are getting lots of "blow-by" past the piston rings. That is why the oxidation/nitration levels are so high and the TBN is being depleted quickly. I'd also expect a fair amount of fuel dilution which is thinning out the oil.

Time to go to a 0w-40/5w-40/10w-40 in this engine.

TooSlick
 
Usually have much more contamination in filters. I sometimes send in from both locations, particullary with 30 gallon filters. Industrial applications often have in line taps, or a vacuum pump from the dipstick.
My 93 Grand Cherokee is on Delo 15w40. Never had any piston slap (although one mechanic told me that's what it was), lots of noise from the lifters before I changed them. I used 20w50 for about a year until I could get the new lifters from the U.S. No idea what oil was used for the first 55,000 miles. By the way, if by chance you still have the original valve springs in there I'd get them out. Mine got so weak they were letting the valves stay open.
 
Widman, which engine do you have in that Grand? As far as I know the lifter noise issue is more a problem with Magnum engines. Often sounds like lifters but can be guides or springs. Sounds like you had at least one.
smile.gif


I'm torn on installing a sampling port. On one hand, I know the sample consistency would be close to perfect. On the other, I need to learn a good method of pre-change sampling that works for vehicles I cannot install valves on. Looks like the dipstick tube and careful process.

David
 
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