I am looking at a filter and was interested in the heads from NT. One area of concern to me is the 15psi bypass. Most oil filters go into bypass at 7-12 psi so shouldn't I want my transmission filter with it's "thinner" fluid to go into bypass even earlier.
Aux. Spin on Transmission Filters
- Thread starter Jim 5
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No need to worry. That's kinda an industry standard for hydraulic filters to be saturated and changed out. They typically are on zero pressure return lines. When you build up 15PSI up stream (or 15PSID) the gauge will be in the red or at "change/service". They're still somewhat filtering ..but they're not designed to take much more PSID (probably 20-25psi without collapsing the media.
It's indifferent to the fluid its filtering ...sorta (conditions and restrictions apply - YMMV).
Anyway ..your cooler line doesn't care. The filter doesn't care ..and unless (allegedly) you've got a Ford super duty (diesel - I think) ..the trans doesn't care. Some fords allegedly will set a code if they see too much cooler line pressure. The flow doesn't change ..just the back pressure generated.
No worries..
It's indifferent to the fluid its filtering ...sorta (conditions and restrictions apply - YMMV).
Anyway ..your cooler line doesn't care. The filter doesn't care ..and unless (allegedly) you've got a Ford super duty (diesel - I think) ..the trans doesn't care. Some fords allegedly will set a code if they see too much cooler line pressure. The flow doesn't change ..just the back pressure generated.
No worries..
All of the Ford 4R100 transmission have a "cooler bypass valve" that is bolted on the trans case. If there is too much pressure differential then the valve opens bypass the cooler circuit all together. The idea was to make sure the trans still got lube oil in the event of a plugged cooler. You can take the valve off and just screw some regular NPT fitting into the case if you want. I've done that to my truck and several others.
The valves are known to fail from time to time, and unless you have an aftermarket trans temp gauge installed you won't know until it's too late. Some SuperDuty's have a factory trans temp gauge, it's useless as it is an idiot light with a needle. The truck will not set a code or a check engine light as the ECM doesn't know what the trans cooling circuit is doing, it's all mechanical.
The valves are known to fail from time to time, and unless you have an aftermarket trans temp gauge installed you won't know until it's too late. Some SuperDuty's have a factory trans temp gauge, it's useless as it is an idiot light with a needle. The truck will not set a code or a check engine light as the ECM doesn't know what the trans cooling circuit is doing, it's all mechanical.
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Hmmm ..this is where I grabbed that tidbit from. It was a link in this thread
In any event...the difference between 8-12 and 15 psi bypass is nothing to worry about.
Dieselsite Trans filter kit
In any event...the difference between 8-12 and 15 psi bypass is nothing to worry about.
The E4OD defiantly does not have ECM controlled/monitored circuits. The only thing that the ECM monitors is sump temp. The 4R100 likewise does not have any ECM interface with the cooling circuit, only a temp probe in the pan. I'm not 100% sure but the 5R110 also only knows what the temp is, not what the cooler flow actually is. The 6spd manuals don't even have a temp sender, let alone any kind of flow/pressure meters.
I think what Bob (owner of Diesel site) might be thinking is, if the cooler circuit is plugged or somehow rendered inop the sump temp will go up. At some point the ECM (usually around 240*F) will start flashing the O/D light in reference to a trans problem. I don't think you could raise the line pressure from a cooler circuit restriction enough to set a light before the CBV goes into operation.
The problem is the CBV is basically a check ball type valve. They are somewhat unpredictable in their longevity. When new I think they go into bypass around 40psi, but as they age that value changes. In our fleet I saw several TOASTED transmissions from failed CBV's because they went into bypass and never sent fluid to the coolers = stinky bad news.
As I said, if you have a trans temp gauge you'll be able to tell whether the CBV is working by the sump temps. This way you'll be able to avoid a cooked transmission whether you have a filter installed or not.
I think what Bob (owner of Diesel site) might be thinking is, if the cooler circuit is plugged or somehow rendered inop the sump temp will go up. At some point the ECM (usually around 240*F) will start flashing the O/D light in reference to a trans problem. I don't think you could raise the line pressure from a cooler circuit restriction enough to set a light before the CBV goes into operation.
The problem is the CBV is basically a check ball type valve. They are somewhat unpredictable in their longevity. When new I think they go into bypass around 40psi, but as they age that value changes. In our fleet I saw several TOASTED transmissions from failed CBV's because they went into bypass and never sent fluid to the coolers = stinky bad news.
As I said, if you have a trans temp gauge you'll be able to tell whether the CBV is working by the sump temps. This way you'll be able to avoid a cooked transmission whether you have a filter installed or not.
Some good reading here on Ford tranny mod when installing aftermarket cooler(and/or filter):
http://www.roscommonequipmentcenter.com/news_notes/nn15.pdf
http://www.roscommonequipmentcenter.com/news_notes/nn15.pdf
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This is the same way Ford used to regulate their oil coolers in the 351 police package. Just a ball and spring ..essentially using viscosity to regulate flow. Not a bad method ..generally speaking, since you absolutely limit the back pressure added by anything down stream.
This is, I believe, unique to these transmissions. The Chrysler 41TE allegedly has something like this, but there's debate on whether the feature reroutes the fluid flow ..or merely modifies the shift points when cold. It's allegedly an active, temp regulated, feature, not a passive one using pressure.
Every automatic that I've encountered has no regulation on the cooler circuit beyond the line pressure limits of the trans. Installation of a Permacool sandwich to drive a bypass filter results in the poppet valve "buzzing" in its attempt to maintain the 2psi limit. This I attribute to the pump relief and the poppet interaction.
Again, 15psid is nothing and will probably be trumped by any cooler installation ..including the factory rad tank unit.
This is, I believe, unique to these transmissions. The Chrysler 41TE allegedly has something like this, but there's debate on whether the feature reroutes the fluid flow ..or merely modifies the shift points when cold. It's allegedly an active, temp regulated, feature, not a passive one using pressure.
Every automatic that I've encountered has no regulation on the cooler circuit beyond the line pressure limits of the trans. Installation of a Permacool sandwich to drive a bypass filter results in the poppet valve "buzzing" in its attempt to maintain the 2psi limit. This I attribute to the pump relief and the poppet interaction.
Again, 15psid is nothing and will probably be trumped by any cooler installation ..including the factory rad tank unit.
OK - seems like everyone is OK with 15 PSI. Filtration products offers the 30 series head with a 5 PSI bypass as well in the head. Thoughts ?
Would 5 PSI be in bypass too little ?
How many gallons per minute does the average transmission flow ? (large SUV)
Would 5 PSI be in bypass too little ?
How many gallons per minute does the average transmission flow ? (large SUV)
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Probably not. Schultz has a 3um absolute filter on his Taurus and has an expensive mount with a sender that is hooked to a light on his dash. Pretty trick, if you ask me. Anyway, he's never seen the light turn on. Cold ..high speed ..nothing. I don't recall, offhand, the threshold/breaking pressure of the bypass ..but it's just below the rating (otherwise the light would never light up). I don't think his is a spring setup up. I believe it's an electrical solenoid valve that opens when the bypass level is reached.
That is, in our automatic transmission environment, it would appear that in the absence of some really bad "issue", that you'll be hard pressed to saturate your filter ....even if it's a very fine one. You can probably put it on an annual or biannual maintenance list.
I put a differential pressure gauge on my oil filter. It was remote mounted. A single filter on a dual mount and I used the engine block take off as a way to tap into the pressure on both sides. I used a PH3614 size PureOne. I thought that the gauge was broken because I never saw it twitch ...ever. I then installed a 10k used FL300 size PureOne ..put in 20w-50 oil ...and started it after an overnight temp of subfreezing temps. Then I experienced about 10PSID ..just below the threshold of the Purolator bypass valve.
You'll have no issues with PSID with ATF at any temp, imo. The bypass should take years to ever open due to loading.
That is, in our automatic transmission environment, it would appear that in the absence of some really bad "issue", that you'll be hard pressed to saturate your filter ....even if it's a very fine one. You can probably put it on an annual or biannual maintenance list.
I put a differential pressure gauge on my oil filter. It was remote mounted. A single filter on a dual mount and I used the engine block take off as a way to tap into the pressure on both sides. I used a PH3614 size PureOne. I thought that the gauge was broken because I never saw it twitch ...ever. I then installed a 10k used FL300 size PureOne ..put in 20w-50 oil ...and started it after an overnight temp of subfreezing temps. Then I experienced about 10PSID ..just below the threshold of the Purolator bypass valve.
You'll have no issues with PSID with ATF at any temp, imo. The bypass should take years to ever open due to loading.
Some interesting facts for those researching filters for their application.
Most of the filters are evaluated for flow and pressure drop using a 150 SSU test fluid.
SSU = Saybolt Seconds, Universal - A method of reporting Kinematic Viscosity, most common in the petroleum industry; 100 centistokes equals 462 SSU.
So 150 SSU x (100 csT / 462 SSU)= ~32.5 csT
Viscosities for Dexron III and 6 ATFs are 6-7 csT at 100 degrees and 30-35 csT at 40 degrees celsius.
Bottom line is that the ATFs should be below the standard test fluid viscosity when at operating temp.
Most of the filters are evaluated for flow and pressure drop using a 150 SSU test fluid.
SSU = Saybolt Seconds, Universal - A method of reporting Kinematic Viscosity, most common in the petroleum industry; 100 centistokes equals 462 SSU.
So 150 SSU x (100 csT / 462 SSU)= ~32.5 csT
Viscosities for Dexron III and 6 ATFs are 6-7 csT at 100 degrees and 30-35 csT at 40 degrees celsius.
Bottom line is that the ATFs should be below the standard test fluid viscosity when at operating temp.
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I'm not disagreeing with you. Your number is correct by my research ..but I've seen no temp index with the 150SSU figure. That is, a 150ssu fluid, at whatever temp any fluid is @ 150SSU produces XxPSID @ Xgpm flow.
Does it matter what the temp of the fluid is if it is @ 150SSU at the testing temp
My Greshen filter just states ^(delta)P @10gpm 150SSU=4PSID which I reason should be the same whether it's 100C visc is higher or lower
Yes - the viscosity results in the pressure differential
Quote:
Does it matter what the temp of the fluid is if it is @ 150SSU at the testing temp?
No - because the viscosity is the variable being controlled for and defined
I believe the actual fluid used for testing is 150 SSU at 100 degrees C. But the 150 SSU is the kinematic viscosity of the fluid used for testing not the name of a standard reference fluid. They could do the same test with a different fluid that was 150 SSU at 60 degrees with the same results.
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My thought being that there are far more convenient temps to test at than 100C. I imagine that you would want whatever test temp to be high enough to exceed any environmental variation. 40C would probably work well.
Many transmissions won't lock-up TC or upshift if the ATF, and not engine temp, isn't hot enough. Other will alter shift points, line pressure, slipcontrol....based on transmission temperature.
So, IMO, cold ATF is great. But, too cool will cause other issues that need to be addressed.
A thermostat would be needed if your ATF is overcooled.
The factory service manual for any vehicle can provide the 'temp' point needed. Most Jatcos, Nissan/Mazda/Subaru, need the ATF temp over 105-110°F to shift normally.
So, IMO, cold ATF is great. But, too cool will cause other issues that need to be addressed.
A thermostat would be needed if your ATF is overcooled.
The factory service manual for any vehicle can provide the 'temp' point needed. Most Jatcos, Nissan/Mazda/Subaru, need the ATF temp over 105-110°F to shift normally.
For my 1998 Landcruiser Toyota considers 50-80 degrees C (122-176 F) to be normal operating temperature. If a cooling system consistently kept the temperature lower than that it would set a CEL.
If the engine is on for 15 minutes and the transmission fluid temp does not rise above a certain point then the ECU assumes the temp sensor is inop.
If the engine is on for 15 minutes and the transmission fluid temp does not rise above a certain point then the ECU assumes the temp sensor is inop.
But "150SSU at 100C" looks so precise and scientific on the graphs.
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Quote:
But "150SSU at 100C" looks so precise and scientific on the graphs.
Absolutely. There's a little Dr. Strangelove in all of us
Vehicle is a 1989 Chevy S-10 Blazer, 700R4 transmission that I am currently replacing owing to it having fried due to contaminated fluid.
couple questions:
-I have a standard remote mount oil filter head that does not have built-in bypass. This is left over from a previous project.
Also have a Perma-Cool sandwich adapter. I believe this has a built-in bypass.
I'm thinking use the filter head with the sandwich adapter attached to it, with a Puro 30001. Take the output from the sandwich adapter and pipe it over to a bypass filter unit, which will have a restrictor on the output side of it to restrict flow down to acceptable bypass levels.
Then plumb the entire thing into the return line from the tranny cooler, using the 30001 fullflow as an external spinon filter for the transmssion, with the Bypass filter paralleled off that via the sandwich adapter and returning into the lowpressure side of said adapter.
sound about right? I am concerned about blocking flow through the transmission by way of a blocked filter. Am I correct in thinking that the sandwich adapter (perma-cool) has a bypass built into it that will avoid this problem?
Failing that- how do you folks mount these hydraulic filters, since I see that the Northern Tool unit doesn't have a mounting solution sold with it?
couple questions:
-I have a standard remote mount oil filter head that does not have built-in bypass. This is left over from a previous project.
Also have a Perma-Cool sandwich adapter. I believe this has a built-in bypass.
I'm thinking use the filter head with the sandwich adapter attached to it, with a Puro 30001. Take the output from the sandwich adapter and pipe it over to a bypass filter unit, which will have a restrictor on the output side of it to restrict flow down to acceptable bypass levels.
Then plumb the entire thing into the return line from the tranny cooler, using the 30001 fullflow as an external spinon filter for the transmssion, with the Bypass filter paralleled off that via the sandwich adapter and returning into the lowpressure side of said adapter.
sound about right? I am concerned about blocking flow through the transmission by way of a blocked filter. Am I correct in thinking that the sandwich adapter (perma-cool) has a bypass built into it that will avoid this problem?
Failing that- how do you folks mount these hydraulic filters, since I see that the Northern Tool unit doesn't have a mounting solution sold with it?
Quote:
Hmmm ..this is where I grabbed that tidbit from. It was a link in this thread
Dieselsite Trans filter kit
In any event...the difference between 8-12 and 15 psi bypass is nothing to worry about.
What's the concensus on this kit? Is it worthwhile for my 1999 F-350 that has already had the trans rebuilt 75K miles ago? Is it overkill and not needed?
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The PermaCool sandwich has a poppet relief that maintains 2PSID across the sandwich. It can go higher and in some applications requires a VERY SMALL hole drilled in it.
There's no need for a restrictor in the bypass filter if you're using the Permcool sandwich. The flow will be self biasing ..routing more to the bypass as the 2PSID will allow at the given viscosity at the moment.
The NorthernTool hydraulic mount has, IIRC, 4 tapped holes on the top for your "L" bracket of choice (U-Fab) ...but you can just route the hoses longer and zip tie it to any thing that will just let it sit there. This is done all the time. You just leave enough slack (also zip-tied) to allow easy servicing of the filter when you get the notion (putting a small drain pan under it).
Another option for plumbing where a bypass is involved is this cofiguration. It's the best of both worlds, imo. This is just a schematic ..and you can surely run hoses to a location where all can be centrally accessible for easy, "single point", servicing. I just mention this since it doesn't occur to many as an option.
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