auto vs manual trans MPG

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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


Stick is driver dependent where many autos are not. And parasitic loss is obviously not as big an issue as everyone thinks. The epa numbers prove it. They are the only standardized results available.





With lots of computer programing in cars, is there any chance that when you turn off the traction control for running EPA MPG cycle test, the car is loading/using a different fuel mapping for the test and make it looks better?

On occasion, I saw a test drives, by CR or Motor Trend, of the same car, one with AT and one with MT. The MT tend to returned with 1-2 MPG higher than the AT counterpart or at worse they are the same.
 
Engines, transmissions, aerodynamics are all different variables just like the drivers themselves. rpn453 lists an example of testing that is simply invalid. It has to be the same identical car with the only variable being the transmission.


Saying that a MT will outlast a AT is uninformed. You get two people driving a MT car, one will invariably be better on the clutch than the other, more wear will result. Take the two same drivers with an AT and it stands a better chance of lasting longer. In my experience an AT will be driven more conservatively than an MT.

Don't get me wrong, I have had both MT and AT cars, I learned on an MT car. I love driving a decent MT car. With DBW and all the electronic interferences these days, some of the fun factor has been removed from the MT experience. I share my cars with my wife, with kids in tow, city driving would be a lot to process along with shifting. AT helps deal with concentrating on better road habits in budding drivers, then graduate to modulating the transmission.
 
Then there are the "fuel economy special" cars that only come a certain way, and really wreck people's perceptions. Those cars tend to be purchased by people who want to wring out a lot of MPG's and drive enough to get a good shot at it. Those can either be AT or MT, and be different enough to the other models in the lineup as to make any comparison meaningless.
 
Steve SRT8.......you are correct, you deduct for manual at trade in time, BUT, you pay that much less when you buy. In my latest case(2012 Mustang) it was $1200.00!!!!!!!! extra for the auto version.
 
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Originally Posted By: SwampDweller
Steve SRT8.......you are correct, you deduct for manual at trade in time, BUT, you pay that much less when you buy. In my latest case(2012 Mustang) it was $1200.00!!!!!!!! extra for the auto version.


Just out of curiosity, do you know how much less to buy a used MT? Would it be more than $1200 less than the AT , say, 5 years down the road? Or, just Stay $1200 less?

All I know is, finding an MT car is almost like finding a gem in pile of [censored], mostly in midsize cars.
 
This topic comes up so often - and yet is so misunderstood.

Most of the world still drives a manual clutch transmission by choice, not because of cost. Why? Driving performance, response, and fuel efficiency where fuel is generally much more than the USA and in Europe driving fun is more important than just off the line acceleration.

Why are automatics (AT-TC, CVT, Automated clutch, DCT) even close today in EPA MPG ratings to manuals?

1. Programming to game the test for the drive cycle- real world results are worse

2. Programming that gives early torque at the expense of mid range driving response - feels fast initially then nothing

3. Lazy ratios that trade off performance significantly vs. mileage

4. More gears locking up in torque converters

5. In the case of automated manuals, they have the benefit of manual clutch internals and their direct drive efficiency with electronic clutch shifting

6. CVTs are more efficient in lower speed than torque converters, but lossy at mid to higher speeds

Why do a few manual transmissions (stick/clutch) get worse US EPA mileage than their AT-TC or CVT counterparts or even DCTs?

1. Gear/final drive (differential) Mainly the gear ratios have much more acceleration vs. the automatic version. As much as 2.5 sec 0-60 improvement for a 2 EPA MPG penalty.
Despite this, real numbers from fuel economy.gov often show better real world mileage with performance advantage for manuals vs. automatics..

2. Test programming Some automatics, as mentioned, have very lazy shifts for the US EPA test cycle. This is also common with Japan market cars that have to meet their 10-15 drive cycle that in real world results can drop MPG figures by double digits depending on the car. If the test cycle short shifts the manual to make up a more aggressive gear, better MPG will result. They don’t test on performance exactly. They test on speed, which requires an understanding of gear ratio as a test driver.

Automatics generally don’t do as well in the European drive cycle as it is most like real world driving.

3.Driver ability: many US driver no longer understand the concept of driving in the proper gear with torque and momentum. They have not had to understand the power band relative to gear ratio and wheel grip. This is common knowledge in Europe.

Why are manual transmissions more efficient and have more control even today?

1. Driver involvement with foresight An automatic is a reactive device. It only reacts to what it has at the given moment. It cannot see ahead. A manual driver has to plan ahead to braking, cornering, hills, traffic, and plan the gear needed ahead of time. This is why racing cars and most big rig trucks are manual clutch transmissions for both performance and efficiency.. They may have electronic clutches or paddles or ‘stackable’, but the driver is responsible for momentum and torque at the wheels to keep the vehicle in control. This works both ways – a lousy driver will rough and inefficient with a MT, but also with an automatic. How inefficient with the AT depends on the mismatch of the gear ratio and momentum with desired speed, hence the potential variance could be wider. A good example is a truck with an AT and a trailer driven by a poor driver up in mixed speed driving. One needs a large amount of torque to offset the lack of foresight and proper gear ratio with such heavy load behind/.

2. Direct drive A clutch in a manual is always connected and not lossy or slipping. While programming and lock up clutches have improved automatic efficiency. Automatics with torque converters tend to be less efficient is city driving or mid-speed suburban driving cycles due to the generally pumping losses plus the converter may not be locked up a good portion of the time. CVTs tend to be the opposite – doing well in mixed throttle speeds, but not as good at higher steady speeds.

3. Gear ratios While most engines operate best with 5 gear ratios and a cruiser gear (6th), there some applications where a 7th gear is useful, but is generally for very high speed racing on road courses (Formula 1, etc.) or heavy trucks. Automatics with multi-speeds (7-9 gears) are simply splitting the partial power bands to offset the lag creating by being in the wrong gear at a given time. They are not more efficient, simply offsetting fundamental efficiencies with frequent shifting in part throttle.

4. Car control and safety Go to any performance driving school (Skip Barber, Bob Bondurant, etc.) and knowing what gear to be in and how much torque to apply to the road is the fundamentals of car control. This requires manual control, foresight, and direct drive. Knowing when to shift is fundamental, even in an automatic.

5. Driving isn’t linear Comparing each on a drag strip or block to block isn’t realistic. Cars need to be run in traffic, up hills, mixed speeds, hard corners, trailering, etc.

6. Simple internals Does not apply to every gearbox, but most. Most manuals are simple compared to a torque converter or a CVT. Parasitic losses are the minimal benchmark. Some act effectively as pumps.

Bottom line is physics. Automatics don’t do anything better vs. a manual with skilled driver. They don’t create efficiency over a manual.

They aren’t more efficient, apples to apples, they have less driver control and safety, and less response and performance.

They simple exist for convenience. Given the amount of urban traffic, not surprising why they are popular.

Me? I only drive an automatic as a rental. Because I have no choice, except in Europe.
 
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen

Saying that a MT will outlast a AT is uninformed. You get two people driving a MT car, one will invariably be better on the clutch than the other, more wear will result. Take the two same drivers with an AT and it stands a better chance of lasting longer. In my experience an AT will be driven more conservatively than an MT.


At is more conservatively driven??!? You have got to be kidding me! it takes ZERO thought to mash the go pedal, downshift and go faster. This is why people race away from stoplights so fast, it is because they dont have to think.

And MT is all about lifecycle cost. An MT will need a clutch at around 160k, but an MT would need a rebuild around the same. Sure there are outliers, but look at the reality of the situation. They are more or less balanced. So at 160k, I can pay $3000 for an AT rebuild, or $800 to replace a clutch. Oh yeah, and the AT cost me $1200 more to buy to start... plus servicing it is more expensive. So Im probably at $4500 over the life of the AT vs say $1000 for the MT. Big difference.

And with the world moving to dual clutch automated manuals, just think of the cost. $1200-1500 to buy. Service every 36000 miles with $$$ fluid. And then, two clutches plus hydraulics to rebuild? Oh yeah, the car keep the trans at the clutchpoint when sitting. Sounds like a recipe for wear...

MT has a far better lifecycle cost, even if they are stupidly geared yielding lower MPGs.

And if you get docked for having an MT, either you dont have the right buyer or youre selling your car with too much life left in it. Both are poor economics. Plus, you paid less for the car to begin with and likely got better real world economy with it... so youre still probably winning in the end.

And isnt the AT heavier too? Let's not forget what that does to MPGs.
 
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
Engines, transmissions, aerodynamics are all different variables just like the drivers themselves. rpn453 lists an example of testing that is simply invalid. It has to be the same identical car with the only variable being the transmission.


I don't know what C&D's procedure is, but I assumed they drove the vehicles together, with the same driving style, over the 750 mile trip. I can't speak for the validity of their test procedure, but the Rio was the only vehicle with a conventional automatic and it was the only one to score below the EPA city rating. The other five cars in the comparison - all manuals except for the CVT-equipped Versa - scored at least 2 mpg higher than their respective EPA city rating.
 
Originally Posted By: SwampDweller
Steve SRT8.......you are correct, you deduct for manual at trade in time, BUT, you pay that much less when you buy. In my latest case(2012 Mustang) it was $1200.00!!!!!!!! extra for the auto version.


Yes, I know. My Father-in-Law is still just a gripin about his new Stang just like yours.

And who's thinking about driving? It takes zero thought to drive a manual after a little experience. I taught three kids to drive in a Neon 5 speed and it's not rocket science!

After all, it's so easy I can do it.
 
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Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen

Saying that a MT will outlast a AT is uninformed. You get two people driving a MT car, one will invariably be better on the clutch than the other, more wear will result. Take the two same drivers with an AT and it stands a better chance of lasting longer. In my experience an AT will be driven more conservatively than an MT.

So at 160k, I can pay $3000 for an AT rebuild, or $800 to replace a clutch.


I have owned Manual tranny cars since 1964..MANY, and have never replaced a clutch. But you think the AVERAGE driver goes 160,000 miles on a clutch? NO WAY! Many Nimrods will destroy a clutch in 20,000 miles or less, and I bet the 'average' clutch life is less thatn half of your 160,000 miles.
 
Doesn't an auto usually weigh quite a bit more than a manual trans? I was always under the impression that the extra weight + final drive ratio accounts for the only difference in mileage.
 
Originally Posted By: D189379
Doesn't an auto usually weigh quite a bit more than a manual trans?

Usually, yes. But...

Originally Posted By: D189379
I was always under the impression that the extra weight + final drive ratio accounts for the only difference in mileage.

No.
 
Originally Posted By: ammolab
I have owned Manual tranny cars since 1964..MANY, and have never replaced a clutch. But you think the AVERAGE driver goes 160,000 miles on a clutch? NO WAY! Many Nimrods will destroy a clutch in 20,000 miles or less, and I bet the 'average' clutch life is less thatn half of your 160,000 miles.


Totally agreed. VERY driver dependent and platform, too. Do you think a clutch lasts the same time in a new 470 hp Challenger 6 speed? I doubt it.

Maybe in a Corolla, but 160k miles is a lot more than is typical.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
At is more conservatively driven??!? You have got to be kidding me! it takes ZERO thought to mash the go pedal, downshift and go faster. This is why people race away from stoplights so fast, it is because they dont have to think.

And MT is all about lifecycle cost. An MT will need a clutch at around 160k, but an MT would need a rebuild around the same. Sure there are outliers, but look at the reality of the situation. They are more or less balanced. So at 160k, I can pay $3000 for an AT rebuild, or $800 to replace a clutch. Oh yeah, and the AT cost me $1200 more to buy to start... plus servicing it is more expensive. So Im probably at $4500 over the life of the AT vs say $1000 for the MT. Big difference.

And with the world moving to dual clutch automated manuals, just think of the cost. $1200-1500 to buy. Service every 36000 miles with $$$ fluid. And then, two clutches plus hydraulics to rebuild? Oh yeah, the car keep the trans at the clutchpoint when sitting. Sounds like a recipe for wear...

MT has a far better lifecycle cost, even if they are stupidly geared yielding lower MPGs.

And if you get docked for having an MT, either you dont have the right buyer or youre selling your car with too much life left in it. Both are poor economics. Plus, you paid less for the car to begin with and likely got better real world economy with it... so youre still probably winning in the end.

And isnt the AT heavier too? Let's not forget what that does to MPGs.

+1. Manuals are the way to go for lower lifecycle cost. Enjoy an MT while you can,elbow tendonitis caused me to go to an AT.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2



And MT is all about lifecycle cost. An MT will need a clutch at around 160k, but an MT would need a rebuild around the same. Sure there are outliers, but look at the reality of the situation. They are more or less balanced. So at 160k, I can pay $3000 for an AT rebuild, or $800 to replace a clutch.

I do agree that with never cars, the expense/complexity of 6 (or more) speed AT's changes this a bit.


So where are you getting FWD clutches replaced for $800.00?

Look, I'm a huge fan of MT's myself, but I think you're overstating and oversimplifying the issue. The real answer is "it depends". If you have a P1 Volvo, or a Gen I/II Subaru Legacy, your life cycle costs on average are going to be higher with an manual transmission. They just are. The AT's in those cars almost never fail, and clutch jobs are expensive--and there's not much of a fuel economy difference due to the gearing. Accord V6 on the other hand??? I think I'll take the MT....
 
Originally Posted By: ffracer

Me? I only drive an automatic as a rental. Because I have no choice, except in Europe.


Me 2. I've never had an AT car. The only time I drove an AT is because it's never belonged to me.

I used to have a company car and it was an AT. With traffic congestion in metro area, it just made me fall asleep, and of course dangerous.

The fun part of MT is the shifting part, even in traffic and take big zero thought. Grew up in metropolitan area, in the most populated island, in the 3rd world country, MT is already in my DNA, feet and hands move on its own to shift. Driving in the states ie LA, traffic jam there is nothing in comparison and still flow much faster.
 
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It's funny how a transmission design can become almost religion. Great fun to hear the long winded defense of the stick shift, but it's mostly baloney.

Despite the huge harangues above the slushbox is here to stay. It's really idiotic to imply that a stick automatically guarantees a better driver. It doesn't.

It's also ridiculous to imply they guarantee a longer lifecycle. They don't.

What we're really discussing is a driver dependent thing. Not hardware. But it's fun to read.
 
Realistically, how many people will plunk down for a brand-new MT car just because they feel like it? There has to be some reason like much higher MPG or substantially lower purchase cost to get a manual car new off the lot today. Add to that the trend over the past 10-20 years of only offering a manual in the decontented base version of a common econobox or midsize car, and it's obvious to me why very few folks drive a manual anymore. Locating a MT car with any options has been next to impossible the past few decades.

What came first, the lack of manual cars or nobody who drives one anymore? It's a tough one to answer.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
It's really idiotic to imply that a stick automatically guarantees a better driver. It doesn't.

Promoting good driving habits is not the same thing as guaranteeing a better driver.
 
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