Auto execs are coming clean evs arentworking.

[PandaBear]

Most of these news stories are ignoring the elephant in the room: a year ago every new car was wildly expensive, with $10K-$20K over MSRP common. Used cars were similarly high priced, with some going for over MSRP. Interest rates near zero were making those prices look reasonable.

That bubble popped. Pent-up demand was satisfied, manufacturers caught up, and interest rates rose to (almost) historically normal levels. Dealer lots are full, and quiet price cutting has started.

This affected EVs as well as ICE vehicles.

This also affects the EV startups' funding (as well as self driving startups like Cruise). The main reason EV companies like Rivian and Tesla are worth that much is the cheap R&D money and their promise of future return. Traditional car companies are worth what they are because investors expect them to remain car companies.

Tesla has about 39% of its value priced in from selling and making cars (from BofA's graph I read somewhere). People are not pricing them like a traditional car company because they aren't a car company, or their stocks won't be worth that much.

 

[PandaBear]

I'm not in the market, but I'd buy a PHEV. But not an EV. Too many issues charging, too expensive to have an electrician wire a bigger outlet into our garage, and EV's are too expensive in general.

I know at least 2 coworkers / tenants who don't have any way to charge at home. Only charging 3 hours a day at the office charger (or mall, or grocery store parking, or Target, etc). I do think if you are discipline about plugging it in every day when you get home, 110V 12A top off from 6pm-7am is fine unless you do long commutes (which you probably should not use an EV to begin with).

It is expensive, but people buy expensive cars like BMWs and Mercedes all the time, so I guess it is fine for many.

 

[Ws6]

I think I read somewhere that the partial throttle low rpm driving situation is still best suited for port injection. However I've also seen Mazda did their only direct injection Skyactiv engine well and it burns hot enough to avoid intake valve deposit problem and still not have NOX problem. Not sure how they did that but those guys in Mazda are really amazing at what they did without spending R&D for hybrid, CVT, or EV.

Ive owned 2 skyactiv engine powered vehicles. Mazda did great work with that engine.

 

[edyvw]

Ive owned 2 skyactiv engine powered vehicles. Mazda did great work with that engine.

There are dedicated Mazda shops doing intake valve cleaning. Business is good!

 

[Ws6]

There are dedicated Mazda shops doing intake valve cleaning. Business is good!

Well, I put 106K miles on one of them, and 80K miles on the other, and both engines ran like a top, so I dunno what to tell you there other than apparently it wasn't a necessary thing for me.

 

[bullwinkle]

EVs are set to dominate the market in most of Western Europe and certain Asian markets. A lot of smaller countries throughout the globe are also buying them the droves.

The USA is buying tons of them as well... so long as they are a Tesla.

The legacy Big 3's failure with EVs has nothing to do with demand. They brought in overpriced vehicles ($60k Blazers, $100k Lightnings, the Hummer EV) and the consumer said no. In the meantime the Tesla Model X and Y remain best sellers even with auto finance rates nearly doubling over the past two years.

There's a reason why Tesla's market value is now nearly eight times more than GM and Ford. Tesla now has virtually no competition in North America and the X and Y are the two largest revenue generators in the world right now.

I'm somewhat intrigued by the Bolt EUV-it's a little pricy, but it's comparable in size to the (tiring) xB, which is usually an urban puddle jumper, usually never going more than 50 miles from home. My question is, as with ALL EVs, how long is the G.D. battery going to last, and how long is GM's support? Their track record on EVs and hybrids is ABYSMAL, possibly the worst in the auto industry!

 

[macarose]

I'm somewhat intrigued by the Bolt EUV-it's a little pricy, but it's comparable in size to the (tiring) xB, which is usually an urban puddle jumper, usually never going more than 50 miles from home. My question is, as with ALL EVs, how long is the G.D. battery going to last, and how long is GM's support? Their track record on EVs and hybrids is ABYSMAL, possibly the worst in the auto industry!

I believe it will easily last over 200,000 miles with proper care unless you live in an environment like Phoenix and keep your car outdoors all the time.

One important note. I own a 2017 Chevy Bolt with 135k miles along with a Tesla and two LEAFs. The Bolt gets more time behind the wheel than all the others combined. It's a nice compact crossover that is more of a workhorse than the others. If you're going this direction, the sweet spot would be a 2017-2020 Bolt with high miles that had its battery replaced less than 40k miles ago. Those are priced at less than half of an EUV if you add the $4000 used car sales tax credit.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I believe it will easily last over 200,000 miles with proper care unless you live in an environment like Phoenix and keep your car outdoors all the time.

One important note. I own a 2017 Chevy Bolt with 135k miles along with a Tesla and two LEAFs. The Bolt gets more time behind the wheel than all the others combined. It's a nice compact crossover that is more of a workhorse than the others. If you're going this direction, the sweet spot would be a 2017-2020 Bolt with high miles that had its battery replaced less than 40k miles ago. Those are priced at less than half of an EUV if you add the $4000 used car sales tax credit.

Unfortunately Americans aren't allowed to buy cheaper EV's.

 

[Number_35]

A few years ago there was an article in National Geographic on making alcohol for fuel. Making alcohol can be quite efficient if it's made with sugar cane.

But in the US it actually took more fuel to grow corn and make alcohol than was saved by partially replacing gasoline. So why do they do it? The farm lobby likes the idea. It's one more market for corn.

I don't remember if they discussed the emissions aspect. And that was a number of years ago and alcohol production may be more efficient now. My only point is that substituting alcohol for gasoline isn't a slam dunk.

Methanol production would be a lot cheaper than ethanol, but I believe there are some political factors at play here.

 

[Number_35]

You also have the complexity and environment concerns of fracking.

Fracking comes with the danger of contaminating ground water, which is really bad.

Conventional oil drilling though, is probably the cleanest of the resource-extraction sectors. (This per Jared Diamond, hardly a shill for the petrochemical industry.)

 

[alarmguy]

Ive owned 2 skyactiv engine powered vehicles. Mazda did great work with that engine.

You might have seen my posts on this before.
2012 Skyactive, it still amazes me. It's our second car, wife works from home. Anyway, this is the one that may one day a replacement might be an electric. Economical around town car.

Ok, back to the car. 95,000 miles for a 2012 is low but this car, 100% true in the 12 years it has never needed a repair.

What amazed us more, Somewhere around 2016 ish. Long out of warranty, Mazda at their expense (it wasnt a recall but was a tech bulletin eventually I think) replaced the entire dashboard from passenger door to drivers door at no cost to us.
Because in one area near the gauges it delaminated a little from the gauge cluster, I guess from the heat in South Carolina. At the time it was small, actually my wife noticed it and she wanted to bring it in, they acknowledged it and sometime later got a letter in the mail that they would replace the entire dash, that didnt included the gauge cluster of course.

Needless to say we are impressed with Mazda as a company, whether that still is the same as back then, I dont know.

 

[Number_35]

You pulled this statement straight out of your backside.

With cheap electricity and expensive gasoline, I'm getting close to justifying an EV or at least a hybrid as a 2nd vehicle.

 

[alarmguy]

With cheap electricity and expensive gasoline, I'm getting close to justifying an EV or at least a hybrid as a 2nd vehicle.

We have both cheap electricity and gasoline ($2.71 gallon the other day at Sam's Club and 10 cents kWr for electric) but for a second car and while I am still on this earth I would strongly consider a small EV to replace our small Mazda (which is used as a local second car) someday.

Its why I think of EVs as just any other vehicle and except in forums I think the public too.
Just another type of engine, both will have a place in society. I cant ever see myself having (or wanting to spend the money) on a large 3 row EV / SUV. I'll always have gasoline SUV for that and towing our boat but for the second car an EV sounds great and care free. Most likely still have years to go and that might be good while the smoke clears.
I might find that little Bolt fun? Or Equinox.

 

[Number_35]

You understand there is no such thing, right? And for good reason.

One needs to consider any existing subsidies for the petrochemical and electric industries.

 

[Number_35]

Yup, that makes sense but due to factors that I don't understand, electric companies often seem to want to sell you less electricity.

Our publically owned electric utility encourages domestic conservation so as to have more electricity to export.

Your utility might be close to its generation limits, and higher consumption would necessitate the construction of expensive new generation. Just a guess.

 

[edyvw]

Well, I put 106K miles on one of them, and 80K miles on the other, and both engines ran like a top, so I dunno what to tell you there other than apparently it wasn't a necessary thing for me.

Did you take down intake manifold? My Tiguan runs excellent, but if I took manifold down, I can guarantee CBU.

 

[JeffKeryk]

With cheap electricity and expensive gasoline, I'm getting close to justifying an EV or at least a hybrid as a 2nd vehicle.

Works for me!

 

[Finklejag]

Ford has a one year supply of Mach E’s on their lots right now and they lose the Federal tax credit on January 1st. Good luck moving those cars without a $20K incentive this month.

 

[alarmguy]

Ford has a one year supply of Mach E’s on their lots right now and they lose the Federal tax credit on January 1st. Good luck moving those cars without a $20K incentive this month.

Yeah, I dont necessarily disagree but they are so expensive I wonder if the $4,500 would have made a difference anyway.
They same might be true for Tesla losing half of its taxpayer grant.

 

[UncleDave]

Tesla already lost the taxpayer credit once and still dominated the BEV market even without it.

The big threes dealer model cost them dearly with the Millennial market and Gen Z buyers - younger buyers when given a choice run away from face to face confrontational sales.

No one has the appetite for dealer markup on top of an expensive and uncompetitive offering.

Anything on a lot without a NACS port is already out of date and undesirable from any manufacturer.