Here is a good example of brainwashing
Australian Anti-Gun Lobby
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If high private gun ownership means high crime, then explain why Russia, a nation that has beyond Draconian laws on gun ownership for almost a century is such a crime infested society as a counterpoint to the Aussie article.
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
If high private gun ownership means high crime, then explain why Russia, a nation that has beyond Draconian laws on gun ownership for almost a century is such a crime infested society as a counterpoint to the Aussie article.
Gun possession in Russia is quite high, both legal and illegal. Anyone can also have a carry permit for gas pistols where you have compressed air cartridge instead of the conventional gunpowder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_pistol
If high private gun ownership means high crime, then explain why Russia, a nation that has beyond Draconian laws on gun ownership for almost a century is such a crime infested society as a counterpoint to the Aussie article.
Gun possession in Russia is quite high, both legal and illegal. Anyone can also have a carry permit for gas pistols where you have compressed air cartridge instead of the conventional gunpowder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_pistol
the Russian problem can be explained in one word
CORRUPTION
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Russia
Canada has similar gun laws and very low rates of firearm murders compared to the us, the numbers don't lie
CORRUPTION
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Russia
Canada has similar gun laws and very low rates of firearm murders compared to the us, the numbers don't lie
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Gun possession in Russia is quite high, both legal and illegal. Anyone can also have a carry permit for gas pistols where you have compressed air cartridge instead of the conventional gunpowder.
Russians drool on the Net over US gun laws. Gun possession in Russia is asymptotic to zero compared to USA.. No comparison. Every time there is a discussion of gun laws they sound kinda proud of Americans that they managed to keep the arms.
Gun possession in Russia is quite high, both legal and illegal. Anyone can also have a carry permit for gas pistols where you have compressed air cartridge instead of the conventional gunpowder.
Russians drool on the Net over US gun laws. Gun possession in Russia is asymptotic to zero compared to USA.. No comparison. Every time there is a discussion of gun laws they sound kinda proud of Americans that they managed to keep the arms.
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
If high private gun ownership means high crime, then explain why Russia, a nation that has beyond Draconian laws on gun ownership for almost a century is such a crime infested society as a counterpoint to the Aussie article.
Gun possession in Russia is quite high, both legal and illegal. Anyone can also have a carry permit for gas pistols where you have compressed air cartridge instead of the conventional gunpowder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_pistol
Did you even read your own link? Gas pistol is a fancy pepper spray.
Civilian possession of firearms is highly regulated in Russia. Until 10 years or so ago you could not own any rifled long guns in calibers over 22LR. No handguns were allowed.
22s as well as air rifles (BB guns) had to be registered and you had to belong to a hunting club to own one. Police could inspect your house at any time to verify you still owned that weapon.
Laws are somewhat more relaxed now (registered hunting rifles are allowed), but possession of unregistered ammunition or powder or primers will land you in jail.
Only "connected" people have legal access to the firearms in Russia. No carry permits for the civilians.
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
If high private gun ownership means high crime, then explain why Russia, a nation that has beyond Draconian laws on gun ownership for almost a century is such a crime infested society as a counterpoint to the Aussie article.
Gun possession in Russia is quite high, both legal and illegal. Anyone can also have a carry permit for gas pistols where you have compressed air cartridge instead of the conventional gunpowder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_pistol
Did you even read your own link? Gas pistol is a fancy pepper spray.
Civilian possession of firearms is highly regulated in Russia. Until 10 years or so ago you could not own any rifled long guns in calibers over 22LR. No handguns were allowed.
22s as well as air rifles (BB guns) had to be registered and you had to belong to a hunting club to own one. Police could inspect your house at any time to verify you still owned that weapon.
Laws are somewhat more relaxed now (registered hunting rifles are allowed), but possession of unregistered ammunition or powder or primers will land you in jail.
Only "connected" people have legal access to the firearms in Russia. No carry permits for the civilians.
There's something going on down here ATM.
For the last year, every morning news has had another story about another Sydney family home getting shot up for no reason during the night.
Last night it was 3 homes.
Someone is trying to make the case for more bans and more laws
For the last year, every morning news has had another story about another Sydney family home getting shot up for no reason during the night.
Last night it was 3 homes.
Someone is trying to make the case for more bans and more laws
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: 2004tdigls
Canada has similar gun laws and very low rates of firearm murders compared to the us, the numbers don't lie
No, I would agreee, but the numbers also have to be seen to be understood. You cannot look at raw numbers; you have to look at percentages.
As a matter of full disclosure, I am an avid gun owner, and a law enforcement officer. But I let data and facts speak louder than opinions and conjecture when the topic of guns and gun-control comes up.
Canada has approximately 1/10th the population of the US; 34 million Canadians versus 330 million in the US. Canada does have a VERY low homicide rate with firearms; the US is much higher. However, the US sees (approximately) 60% of all gun deaths as a result of sucicide, where Canada sees 80% as suicide. That skews the data in their favor, so to speak. Still, Canada enjoys a very low gun-homicide rate.
Also, violent crime in the US has been on the way down for two successive decades, believe it or not (FBI statistics bear this to be true). As our world techonology increases (easier forms of data sharing via the internet) we see more incredulous stories, but we lose sight of the overall picture without a frame of reference, unless we stand back and review the whole data field.
If you want to really shock yourself, look into how many people are killed accidentially by the medical profession (the only data I have researched is in the US).
You are 9000x (that's nine-thousand times) more likely to be accidentally killed by iatrogenic casuation (medical decisions and actions) than to be accidentially shot to death in the US. You are WAY MORE LIKELY to die from a medical mistake than you are to be killed by any other means (intentional or accidental, combined)! In fact, homicide (of all types, not just gun-related) does not even make the "top ten" for cause-of-death in the US (homocide is #15). And I have the data from the credible sources such as the DOJ, FBI, CDC, AMA and others to back it up.
Just keep this in mind:
People kill people; objects are tools.
BTW - Keep the politics out of this, please. I know it's hard to do so with such a charged topic (pardon the pun), but try, please. It's OK to discuss facts, but don't get into the raw politics of it all.
Canada has similar gun laws and very low rates of firearm murders compared to the us, the numbers don't lie
No, I would agreee, but the numbers also have to be seen to be understood. You cannot look at raw numbers; you have to look at percentages.
As a matter of full disclosure, I am an avid gun owner, and a law enforcement officer. But I let data and facts speak louder than opinions and conjecture when the topic of guns and gun-control comes up.
Canada has approximately 1/10th the population of the US; 34 million Canadians versus 330 million in the US. Canada does have a VERY low homicide rate with firearms; the US is much higher. However, the US sees (approximately) 60% of all gun deaths as a result of sucicide, where Canada sees 80% as suicide. That skews the data in their favor, so to speak. Still, Canada enjoys a very low gun-homicide rate.
Also, violent crime in the US has been on the way down for two successive decades, believe it or not (FBI statistics bear this to be true). As our world techonology increases (easier forms of data sharing via the internet) we see more incredulous stories, but we lose sight of the overall picture without a frame of reference, unless we stand back and review the whole data field.
If you want to really shock yourself, look into how many people are killed accidentially by the medical profession (the only data I have researched is in the US).
You are 9000x (that's nine-thousand times) more likely to be accidentally killed by iatrogenic casuation (medical decisions and actions) than to be accidentially shot to death in the US. You are WAY MORE LIKELY to die from a medical mistake than you are to be killed by any other means (intentional or accidental, combined)! In fact, homicide (of all types, not just gun-related) does not even make the "top ten" for cause-of-death in the US (homocide is #15). And I have the data from the credible sources such as the DOJ, FBI, CDC, AMA and others to back it up.
Just keep this in mind:
People kill people; objects are tools.
BTW - Keep the politics out of this, please. I know it's hard to do so with such a charged topic (pardon the pun), but try, please. It's OK to discuss facts, but don't get into the raw politics of it all.
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When I was in grad school I majored in several fields, one was Soviet History. Believe me...private possession of firearms was something for only the well connected in the communist party. They did not want any pesky uprisings. The Civil War and the Kronstadt Uprising against the Bolsheviks taught them well. If the people have guns, they may use them against the state. Also if the state has all the guns, they can use them against the people. They preferred the second option. Mao once said...political power grows from the barrel of a gun.
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And here are some more plain and simple facts. The largest mass murder with firearms in recent history is in Norway. Adrews Brevik killed a lot of people in a nation that is quite strict on gun ownership and licensing.
People will find another way to kill people. One man in Japan used a car to run over people in a crowd, then got out and hacked them with a knife. All it takes is a deranged and determined mind to find a tool for extinguishing the life of another
IMHO gun violence is not a problem, but a symptom of a problem in a society and often we tend to want to treat symptoms instead of the root causes. And logically a criminal will not obey laws anyways, so any laws are usually ineffective. A black market or an alternative likes pipe bombs (easily made if you read some old field manuals or have the internet)will be a valid choice.
People will find another way to kill people. One man in Japan used a car to run over people in a crowd, then got out and hacked them with a knife. All it takes is a deranged and determined mind to find a tool for extinguishing the life of another
IMHO gun violence is not a problem, but a symptom of a problem in a society and often we tend to want to treat symptoms instead of the root causes. And logically a criminal will not obey laws anyways, so any laws are usually ineffective. A black market or an alternative likes pipe bombs (easily made if you read some old field manuals or have the internet)will be a valid choice.
An unarmed population is defenseless. Gun control is just another form of population control.
The poster aboveakes some very good points.
The poster aboveakes some very good points.
Depends what they are up against - we have an unarmed police force, and our military is more an aid force, here and abroad. Yes we have an armed public - the Government isn't very concerned about them....gun owners aren't very concerned about the Government. If we have a problem with who is in power, we vote them out...no need for guns at this point in time.
Thats the beauty of an armed populace. Keeps things civil and as New Zealand is also descended from British tradition and culture, they should respect gun ownership. I mean it was the same flavor of Enlightenment that affected the U.K. and the U.S.A. The English Bill of Rights has a similar law to the U.S. Second Amendment, one that the British Parliament seems to want to and has indeed ignored.
A true and civil nation does not need an army to police itself IMHO. Unfortunately with the banter on the U.S. 2008 campaign trail of a Civil Defense Force and the recent enactment of the National Defense Authorization Act, it seems that the U.S. Govt could be looking more suspiciously at its civilian population. This concerns me as Liberty is rarely taken at once in history. It is eroded a little at a time so people do not make a fuss about it. Scare people enough and they will even go along with it. The German Enabling Act of 1933 is perfect proof of that.
A famous Enlightenment and U.S. Scientific legend is credited with saying "Those that give up essential liberty for the promise of temporary safety deserve neither" That man was Ben Franklin.
Now I had family that lived and died under the totalitarian regimes of Hitler and Stalin in what was old East Prussia. I studied German and Russian history in grad school, even took two of my fields in it. So that has colored the way I see things. I am not bantering politics, just what I see as areas of concern, and historical evidence that while not shining a clear light on present and future intent, does make me concerned with what may happpen.
As far as gun laws here. I have ads from the 50's where you could buy a surplus German anti tank rifle and ammo through the U.S. mail no questions asked. And yet violence was low. There were tons of cheap guns on the streets, and violence was not out of hand. To me that says that guns are never the problem, its the people using them that go bad.
I have ranted enough on this subject. I just know a lot of people in my family died in especially Soviet occupied territory after the war that could not defend themselves. I am glad my grandfather was able to sneak out and come here. I would have hated to grow up in E. Germany.
A true and civil nation does not need an army to police itself IMHO. Unfortunately with the banter on the U.S. 2008 campaign trail of a Civil Defense Force and the recent enactment of the National Defense Authorization Act, it seems that the U.S. Govt could be looking more suspiciously at its civilian population. This concerns me as Liberty is rarely taken at once in history. It is eroded a little at a time so people do not make a fuss about it. Scare people enough and they will even go along with it. The German Enabling Act of 1933 is perfect proof of that.
A famous Enlightenment and U.S. Scientific legend is credited with saying "Those that give up essential liberty for the promise of temporary safety deserve neither" That man was Ben Franklin.
Now I had family that lived and died under the totalitarian regimes of Hitler and Stalin in what was old East Prussia. I studied German and Russian history in grad school, even took two of my fields in it. So that has colored the way I see things. I am not bantering politics, just what I see as areas of concern, and historical evidence that while not shining a clear light on present and future intent, does make me concerned with what may happpen.
As far as gun laws here. I have ads from the 50's where you could buy a surplus German anti tank rifle and ammo through the U.S. mail no questions asked. And yet violence was low. There were tons of cheap guns on the streets, and violence was not out of hand. To me that says that guns are never the problem, its the people using them that go bad.
I have ranted enough on this subject. I just know a lot of people in my family died in especially Soviet occupied territory after the war that could not defend themselves. I am glad my grandfather was able to sneak out and come here. I would have hated to grow up in E. Germany.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
There's something going on down here ATM.
For the last year, every morning news has had another story about another Sydney family home getting shot up for no reason during the night.
Last night it was 3 homes.
Someone is trying to make the case for more bans and more laws
16th of January, and 14 drive by shootings in Sydney, that majority on sleeping innocent familes...there surely is something going on.
And the antis are getting more vocal...
There's something going on down here ATM.
For the last year, every morning news has had another story about another Sydney family home getting shot up for no reason during the night.
Last night it was 3 homes.
Someone is trying to make the case for more bans and more laws
16th of January, and 14 drive by shootings in Sydney, that majority on sleeping innocent familes...there surely is something going on.
And the antis are getting more vocal...
As an exceptionally experienced world traveler (aviation) I've spent time in over 100 countries!!
I can say, with authority, every country is significantly different. Japan, for example has a largely homogeneous population. The United States does not. Same goes for the climate. Much of Russia is quite cold, where the Bahamas are never cold. People behave quite differently for many reasons.
It really is impossible to compare the needs of one population against another. Canada, for example does not have hordes of illegals pouring over the border and terrorizing ranchers.
The lists and reasons for and against arms ownership are truly endless. But one truth remains. Freedom and the right to keep and bear arms go hand in hand. Regardless of the "murder rate" of one particular country, or other such nonsense.
I can say, with authority, every country is significantly different. Japan, for example has a largely homogeneous population. The United States does not. Same goes for the climate. Much of Russia is quite cold, where the Bahamas are never cold. People behave quite differently for many reasons.
It really is impossible to compare the needs of one population against another. Canada, for example does not have hordes of illegals pouring over the border and terrorizing ranchers.
The lists and reasons for and against arms ownership are truly endless. But one truth remains. Freedom and the right to keep and bear arms go hand in hand. Regardless of the "murder rate" of one particular country, or other such nonsense.
If you consider that there has been an average of 160,000 troops in the Iraq theater of operations during the past 22 months and a total of 2112 deaths, that gives a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000 soldiers.
The firearm death rate in Washington, DC is 80.6 per 100,000 people for the same period.
That means you are about 25% more likely to be shot and killed in the U.S. capital, which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the U.S., than you are in Iraq. And it is close to impossible to have a legal handgun gun in DC.
Here is an account, a very recent one
Should US pull out of DC?
The firearm death rate in Washington, DC is 80.6 per 100,000 people for the same period.
That means you are about 25% more likely to be shot and killed in the U.S. capital, which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the U.S., than you are in Iraq. And it is close to impossible to have a legal handgun gun in DC.
Here is an account, a very recent one
Should US pull out of DC?
Well 200 plus years ago they build DC on stagnant swamps and cesspools.....the more things change the more they stay the same. LOL
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Shannow
There's something going on down here ATM.
For the last year, every morning news has had another story about another Sydney family home getting shot up for no reason during the night.
Last night it was 3 homes.
Someone is trying to make the case for more bans and more laws
16th of January, and 14 drive by shootings in Sydney, that majority on sleeping innocent familes...there surely is something going on.
And the antis are getting more vocal...
And with smuggling and black markets, if ya ban more of em, things wont change. Choosing to target some of the tools of violent perpetrators instead of addressing the root cause of needless violence is just dumb. It is like a bandage on a broken arm.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
There's something going on down here ATM.
For the last year, every morning news has had another story about another Sydney family home getting shot up for no reason during the night.
Last night it was 3 homes.
Someone is trying to make the case for more bans and more laws
16th of January, and 14 drive by shootings in Sydney, that majority on sleeping innocent familes...there surely is something going on.
And the antis are getting more vocal...
And with smuggling and black markets, if ya ban more of em, things wont change. Choosing to target some of the tools of violent perpetrators instead of addressing the root cause of needless violence is just dumb. It is like a bandage on a broken arm.
I think the score is 16 from 18 now as of this morning's news.
The Anti mantra ATM is that every illegal gun was once legal...which by definition is true, but the statistics show that the legally owned/registered guns typically don't become tools of evil, and when they are stolen, the bolt/etc. is usually missing due to our safe storage.
The entire container of Glocks that went missing one a train between Melbourne and Sydney never rates a column, let alone headline.
And 3% of freight containers entering the country get scanned...pretty good odds if you are a bulk supplier. Dozens of containers packed with Cocaine were found by random end purchasers of containers.
The Anti mantra ATM is that every illegal gun was once legal...which by definition is true, but the statistics show that the legally owned/registered guns typically don't become tools of evil, and when they are stolen, the bolt/etc. is usually missing due to our safe storage.
The entire container of Glocks that went missing one a train between Melbourne and Sydney never rates a column, let alone headline.
And 3% of freight containers entering the country get scanned...pretty good odds if you are a bulk supplier. Dozens of containers packed with Cocaine were found by random end purchasers of containers.
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