ATGATT?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Saw a guy on a Sportster hit a dog and slid on his face for a 100 feet. He had a helmet on, but not a full-face helmet. He no longer has a nose or chin. Highway Patrolman said if he had a full-face helmet, he would not have sustained those injuries.

Made a believer out of me. I like my nose and chin...

Think about getting hit in the face by a bird or small rock at speed and no helmet?
 
Last edited:
ATGATT for my family! Yep, the gear costs money, but it just isn't worth the risk.

Me and my two boys.

Picture1104-1.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: cfromc
Lorenzo, we need to separate, or at least identify the risks. You are referring to the risk of injury during a crash. There is a second risk, that is of getting into a crash in the first place. I believe that, on average, the use of a helmet on public roadways increases the risk of a crash, although in some cases use of a helmet may reduce the risk. Drawback: reduced hearing and peripheral eyesight, Benefit: more protection from airborne debris. Once a crash has occurred there are drawbacks to a helmet, including the increased weight and the ability of rescue personnel to remove the helmet, there are benefits including surface protection of the head and some impact protection. I'm not denying that. What I am saying is that a blanket and dismissive statment like "a proper helmet reduces risk is a fact" is not at all a fact and is your opinion. - Just like your statement that "overall you have less risk with the helmet". Less risk of what? Certainly you don't believe that helmet use is more likely to prevent an accident than it is to cause one....?

Even the actual Snell standard uses terms like "can minimize the risk" [emphasis added by me] and "The protective capacity of a helmet is difficult to estimate", "since the range of vision you obtain may vary considerably from our measurement, be absolutely certain that the helmet and face shield permit you adequate vision." [What is "adequate" and do I really want just adequate vision?].

The helmets are tested using destructive tests, and while there are ["minimum" or "adequate"] vision standards required, clearly the emphasis is on protection during an accident, and not on accident avoidance.
Further, what is the speed the helmet is tested at, 17MPH?



I respect your personal choice regarding helmets. But according to the crash test dummy guys, your perceived drawbacks are not true: http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/helmet_use.html
 
Originally Posted By: tom slick
Yes

As a dirt rider crashing is part of the game. It hurts a lot more without gear. Street riders who have "never" crashed and ride with minimum gear don't have a clue.


I started off on dirt bikes where the helmet saved me numerous times. I guess I didn't even think about not wearing a full face helmet on the street, it was 2nd nature. I'll admit that sometimes on hot days the mesh jacket comes off. One thing to remember when it gets hot, gear or no gear, stay hydrated.
As I look out of my window this morning at the snow, I'm really looking forward to the 2010 riding season. I'd like to wish everybody a good SAFE season. Now out to the garage, I have a new Dunlop roadsmart to put on the back of the Warrior.
 
Originally Posted By: swimmer
Originally Posted By: cfromc
Lorenzo, we need to separate, or at least identify the risks. You are referring to the risk of injury during a crash. There is a second risk, that is of getting into a crash in the first place. I believe that, on average, the use of a helmet on public roadways increases the risk of a crash, although in some cases use of a helmet may reduce the risk. Drawback: reduced hearing and peripheral eyesight, Benefit: more protection from airborne debris. Once a crash has occurred there are drawbacks to a helmet, including the increased weight and the ability of rescue personnel to remove the helmet, there are benefits including surface protection of the head and some impact protection. I'm not denying that. What I am saying is that a blanket and dismissive statment like "a proper helmet reduces risk is a fact" is not at all a fact and is your opinion. - Just like your statement that "overall you have less risk with the helmet". Less risk of what? Certainly you don't believe that helmet use is more likely to prevent an accident than it is to cause one....?

Even the actual Snell standard uses terms like "can minimize the risk" [emphasis added by me] and "The protective capacity of a helmet is difficult to estimate", "since the range of vision you obtain may vary considerably from our measurement, be absolutely certain that the helmet and face shield permit you adequate vision." [What is "adequate" and do I really want just adequate vision?].

The helmets are tested using destructive tests, and while there are ["minimum" or "adequate"] vision standards required, clearly the emphasis is on protection during an accident, and not on accident avoidance.
Further, what is the speed the helmet is tested at, 17MPH?



I respect your personal choice regarding helmets. But according to the crash test dummy guys, your perceived drawbacks are not true: http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/helmet_use.html


awesome link
01.gif
 
Originally Posted By: swimmer
I respect your personal choice regarding helmets. But according to the crash test dummy guys, your perceived drawbacks are not true: http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/helmet_use.html


I must have missed these past few posts.

Sorry, I take information from iihs with a grain of salt as they are definitely biased against motorcycles. Read the following excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurance_Institute_for_Highway_Safety

Bolded portions by me

"The IIHS has come under scrutiny on several occasions since the 1980s over what some consider unfair bias toward certain vehicle types, namely some small pickups and certain types of motorcycles. Since the IIHS first-and-foremost represents the interests of the 80 insurance companies from which it receives its funding, critics such as the American Motorcyclist Association have suggested that the IIHS sometimes seeks to influence legislation aimed at making insurance companies more profitable, rather than benefitting the public interest.[8]

In 1980, the IIHS helped 60 Minutes produce a report slamming the Jeep CJ in which a superhumanly capable robot apparatus was used to put the vehicles through 435 unrealistic test runs to get 8 rollovers.[9]

The IIHS released a report in 2007 suggesting that certain types of motorcycles be either banned or restricted from use on public roads, specifically sportbikes, after lumping together several different types of non-sport motorbikes into makeshift categories, allegedly to skew the crash data in favor of its argument. The 2007 report mirrored a similar IIHS study released in 1987, which was claimed by the IIHS to be based on findings in the famous Hurt Report motorcycle crash study, and which was used to influence U.S. Sen. John Danforth into proposing a law that would have mandated horsepower limits for bikes sold in America. Dr. Hugh H. (“Harry”) Hurt, Jr., the noted author of the Hurt Report, called the 1987 IIHS study "sloppy" and "fatally flawed".[10]

Citing its similarities to the 1987 report, AMA called the 2007 IIHS report "...a bike classification shell game". An AMA news release stated: "We beat the IIHS sportbike ban [in 1987], and we even got Sen. Danforth on our side, saying that he recognized that the AMA had the constituent interest in motorcycle safety and that his IIHS-backed bill was a 'dead-end street.'".[11]

Ed Moreland, AMA vice president for government relations, said of the 2007 report: "This kind of flawed report, passed off as scientific research, has the potential to do great damage. At the very least, it can create false perceptions we’ll have to fight for years. And at worst, it could lead to restrictive laws that have no basis in reality.”."

If they are willing to play games in an attempt to ban or restrict certain types of motorcycles, I see no great leap for them to play with the numbers regarding helmet use statistics.
 
Originally Posted By: cfromc
If they are willing to play games in an attempt to ban or restrict certain types of motorcycles, I see no great leap for them to play with the numbers regarding helmet use statistics.


Ok, I can see why you are skeptical about info coming from the IIHS. How about the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, which is endorsed by the AMA: http://www.msf-usa.org/index_new.cfm?spl=2&action=display&pagename=Library Click on "How Helmets Work" under Cycle Safety Information (CSI) Documents

While the AMA opposes mandatory helmet laws, the Association also encourages voluntary helmet use: http://www.amadirectlink.com/roadride/NewRider/startright.asp
 
Originally Posted By: swimmer
Originally Posted By: cfromc
If they are willing to play games in an attempt to ban or restrict certain types of motorcycles, I see no great leap for them to play with the numbers regarding helmet use statistics.


Ok, I can see why you are skeptical about info coming from the IIHS. How about the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, which is endorsed by the AMA: http://www.msf-usa.org/index_new.cfm?spl=2&action=display&pagename=Library Click on "How Helmets Work" under Cycle Safety Information (CSI) Documents

While the AMA opposs mandatory helmet laws, the Association also encourages voluntary helmet use: http://www.amadirectlink.com/roadride/NewRider/startright.asp


I've got nothing against the AMA or MSF and was a member of the AMA for several years and took a couple MSF rider courses. Overall I think they are great organizations. I just don't share the MSF's opinion that "helmets break necks, block vision and impair hearing” are only myths. I've got a couple helmets and my full face one certainly does impair hearing and block vision, maybe only slightly but none-the-less, it does. The extra weight may or may not cause neck damage but it stands to reason that the heavier the head+helmet the more force is exerted as the head+helmet stop suddenly.
 
Last edited:
ATGATT for me. I choose to wear high-end Arai full-face helmets and never had any problem with peripheral vision. (my head's the type that can also move on it's neck, so I'm constantly scanning traffic and the scenery too)

As far as hearing, Howard Leight Max 33 earplugs under the helmet. I'll put money down that after a hour of high-speed wind-roar, my hearing will be far more sensitive with the plugs than someone unprotected and exposed to 110db wind noise. Plus, the hearing loss from no ear-protection is cumulative and permanent.

Different priorities I guess, but after 25+ years of riding all over this continent, I've learned a few things.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom