ATF change 2012 BMW 335is; dealers say never do

[Coprolite]

As there is not a big price difference, I would rather use the scan tool to run the transmission through the gears properly while filling. The price difference also includes lift rental, which makes dropping the pan much easier and quicker. Since ambient down here exceeds the minimum temperature for checking, that would be no issue. I would be more worried about exceeding the range and having to wait ages for it to cool.

I know that many people are good with close enough, but as a technical manager that has written many procedures the BMW phrasing is strong enough to know that many ruined transmissions are out there that didn't follow the protocol. I'd be willing to venture that under filling was likely if the temperature range was exceeded or all the gears weren't cycled right.

"To set the correct level, it is mandatory that the service function "Transmission control unit: oil adjustment" is performed using the diagnosis system.
Failure to comply with this requirement will result in serious damage to the automatic transmission. "

If I were getting charged dealer rates or similar for labor and lift, I would order the jack stand inserts and get the car up on all four stands and have a go at it. Perhaps chilling the atf would keep the fluid from getting too warm, as I am a slow and cautious worker. Or perhaps doing it in the winter, as I still have some time until this really should be done(now at 45k, see rec. below). I am just going to budget in the $70 or so and be a mechanic's helper on this one. The parts far exceed the labor on this one.

How would you interpret this recommendation - Severe or Standard duty?
"Automatic ZF transmissions are filled with the specially developed ZF-LIFEGUARDFLUID transmission oil. At very high operating temperatures, the oil ages faster than under normal conditions. Depending on the driving style (e.g. many drives at high speeds or sporty driving), ZF therefore recommends a transmission oil change every 100,000 km or after 8 years at the latest."

For those that are adventurous, here is the ZF instruction page:
ZF 8HP fluid change instructions

 

[MarcS]

if you're off by 10 degrees +/-, the difference is only 1-2 ounces in a 10qt system

 

[DSteven]

UPDATE:

The BMW dealer was not willing to change the ATF, so I used the Ford dealer, lol. After two drain and fills with 10 quarts of MaxLife ATF plus one bottle of LubeGard Red, the transmission shifts great. It never had an issue, but I wanted to perform regular maintenance. The fluid that came out wasn't bad, but was ready to be changed. The shifts seem to be smoother and quicker with the MaxLife ATF. Both the MaxLife ATF and the LubeGard Red are each recommended by the respective company for use in the BMW ZF transmission. After using each, I would agree. The drain and fill is fairly easy on this transmission by using the drain and fill plugs....I would recommend it be done at a regular interval. There is a sticker on the transmission that states 'filled for life-do not service', but I feel it is good practice to ignore that and maintain the transmission. Thank you for the information and help.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: DSteven
UPDATE:

The BMW dealer was not willing to change the ATF, so I used the Ford dealer, lol. After two drain and fills with 10 quarts of MaxLife ATF plus one bottle of LubeGard Red, the transmission shifts great. It never had an issue, but I wanted to perform regular maintenance. The fluid that came out wasn't bad, but was ready to be changed. The shifts seem to be smoother and quicker with the MaxLife ATF. Both the MaxLife ATF and the LubeGard Red are each recommended by the respective company for use in the BMW ZF transmission. After using each, I would agree. The drain and fill is fairly easy on this transmission by using the drain and fill plugs....I would recommend it be done at a regular interval. There is a sticker on the transmission that states 'filled for life-do not service', but I feel it is good practice to ignore that and maintain the transmission. Thank you for the information and help.

Yes it is good practice, except you suppose to fill with ZF fluid not Valvoline and whatever else you put in transmission.
ZF fluid is around $26 per bottle, and you figure out why it is so much more expensive then Maxlife.
As whatever that lubeguard is, if transmission failes down the road, there is your culprit. Of course they will advertise it is suitable. The question is: is it approved by ZF?

 

[MCompact]

I agree with edyvw; you are tempting fate running MaxLife with LubeGuard. The maintenance interval is 50k miles; $26/quart amortized over that mileage isn't that bad- especially considering that a manufactured 8HP45 costs nearly $8500(plus installation).

 

[DSteven]

Thank you for the replies. The MaxLife ATF is approved from Valvoline as meeting the spec, and the LubeGard is approved by the OEM as approved for the transmission. I think MoleKule has spoken well of LubeGard. Again, thank you!!

 

[SatinSilver]

How much did the Ford dealer charge for the atf change? I like taking one of my cars there for oil changes, tires etc. Plus the car is due for new atf. Thanks!

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: DSteven
Thank you for the replies. The MaxLife ATF is approved from Valvoline as meeting the spec, and the LubeGard is approved by the OEM as approved for the transmission. I think MoleKule has spoken well of LubeGard. Again, thank you!!

Wait, the Maxlife is approved by Valvoline? Valvoline makes Maxlife, so what does it matter if it is approved by Valvoline?
Question is, is it approved by BMW or ZF?
LubeGuard is approved by OEM? What does that mean? Is it specifically approved by BMW and ZF?
I highly doubt that Lubeguard is approved or even ever considered by BMW and ZF. As for Valvoline, maybe, but I think Maxlife "meets specification," it is not approved.
There are numerous oils that "meet specification," which in reality does not mean anything.
For example on engine oil that I use in BMW, Valvoline specifically says" approved BMW LL-04. As far as I know Valvoline Maxlif states "meets specification," which in reality means that it is not approved by BMW and ZF.

 

[DSteven]

The total was $67.14. I provided the ATF and the LubeGard additive. Three gallons of Maxlife ($17.87 each) and $9.99 for the LubeGard.

 

[DSteven]

Thank you for the clarification of 'approved by' and 'meets the spec'. You are correct. However, BMW or/rather ZF/GM give their stamp of approval for the LubeGard, from my research and phone calls. I understand it may be the only additive approved, but it states it as such. I also understand this does not mean the dealer would give its blessing to use Lubegard. The dealer did tell me to use only the ATF they sell. I read the Maxlife meets the spec, and valvoline tech dept also stated it does meeting all specs. Again, I bet the dealer does not give its blessing to use it. In fact, I would guess that if I return to the dealer for anything and mention what I've done, they will shake their heads and tell me I've done wrong. But, that aside all three have treated me very kindly and I have no complaints for any of the three BMW dealers I've dealt with. The transmission seems to be operating better since the ATF change as far as quick, smooth shifting. The trans temp is operating cooler under similar driving conditions, per the OBD data reader. But I do not doubt your info and thank you greatly for sharing your thoughts and knowledge. I will monitor it closely and perhaps switch back to the OEM fluid if anything changes.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: DSteven
Thank you for the clarification of 'approved by' and 'meets the spec'. You are correct. However, BMW or/rather ZF/GM give their stamp of approval for the LubeGard, from my research and phone calls. I understand it may be the only additive approved, but it states it as such. I also understand this does not mean the dealer would give its blessing to use Lubegard. The dealer did tell me to use only the ATF they sell. I read the Maxlife meets the spec, and valvoline tech dept also stated it does meeting all specs. Again, I bet the dealer does not give its blessing to use it. In fact, I would guess that if I return to the dealer for anything and mention what I've done, they will shake their heads and tell me I've done wrong. But, that aside all three have treated me very kindly and I have no complaints for any of the three BMW dealers I've dealt with. The transmission seems to be operating better since the ATF change as far as quick, smooth shifting. The trans temp is operating cooler under similar driving conditions, per the OBD data reader. But I do not doubt your info and thank you greatly for sharing your thoughts and knowledge. I will monitor it closely and perhaps switch back to the OEM fluid if anything changes.

Dealer is irrelevant in this. I bet you service advisor does not have a clue actually what transmission is in your car. Dealer would advise you to not change fluid although ZF actually says to change it anywhere between 60,000 and 75,000 miles.
BMW right now uses Shell produced ATF. However, original fill is ZF! I bet you that ZF does not approve Lubeguard as BWM and ZF clearly state that no additives should ever be used in engine or transmission. Whether GM gives it stamp of approval for Lubeguard is irrelevant if you have ZF transmission. GM sourced on transmission to few BMW models.
Here is list of approved ATF by ZF:
ZF approved fluids
And yes, with new fluid transmission will change smoother. It did same in my transmission when I put new ZF6 ATF.
Question is how much deposit Maxlife and Lubeguard are going to create? That is unknown, and $8,500 gamble.

 

[edyvw]

By the way, did you change filter/pan on transmission?

 

[Hall]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
ZF fluid is around $26 per bottle, and you figure out why it is so much more expensive then Maxlife.
Because they can is just a valid reason as any other. Automotive engineers aren't oil or fluid experts - they work closely with their preferred oil/fluid supplier and tell them what they need. It's entirely possible that ZF engineers did this with Shell (someone said Shell produces their current ATF) and Shell said, "our ATF 12345 is ideal for this application" and they run with that.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: hallstevenson
Originally Posted By: edyvw
ZF fluid is around $26 per bottle, and you figure out why it is so much more expensive then Maxlife.
Because they can is just a valid reason as any other. Automotive engineers aren't oil or fluid experts - they work closely with their preferred oil/fluid supplier and tell them what they need. It's entirely possible that ZF engineers did this with Shell (someone said Shell produces their current ATF) and Shell said, "our ATF 12345 is ideal for this application" and they run with that.

Shell produces current ATF for BMW, NOT ZF. That fluid is approved by ZF. Interestingly Shell aftermarket ATF is not approved by ZF. So, I would say there is something that separates ZF from other fluids. I would not bet my transmission on idea that ZF charges that fluid so expensive just because it is ZF. Also, their fluid is tru synthetic fluid since in Germany it is sold as full synthetic. I would say their fluid is made by pentosin or Castrol.
Also, with BMW's it is tricky. Their transfer case fluid is so unique, that very few, if any manufacturers are making aftermarket fluid for BMW TC. Even Redline, that has products that "meet specification" from house blender to jet engine, dos not recommend their TC fluid for BMW's.

 

[RooflessVW]

Everytime this topic comes up the advice is clear: don't screw around with different fluid types unless you're prepared to bet your transmission on it.

The OP has put his money down. It would likely cost $500 or more to go back to ZF Lifeguard 8, and we all know that's not going to happen.

Will the OP keep his car long enough to see the long term effects? Who knows.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Everytime this topic comes up the advice is clear: don't screw around with different fluid types unless you're prepared to bet your transmission on it.

The OP has put his money down. It would likely cost $500 or more to go back to ZF Lifeguard 8, and we all know that's not going to happen.

Will the OP keep his car long enough to see the long term effects? Who knows.

ZF8 + filter/pan if you want to do it right.
I paid $26 for ZF6+7 bottles, ZF filter/pan is around $120 on Amazon, plus labor.
So yeah, a little bit over $500.

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Everytime this topic comes up the advice is clear: don't screw around with different fluid types unless you're prepared to bet your transmission on it.

The OP has put his money down. It would likely cost $500 or more to go back to ZF Lifeguard 8, and we all know that's not going to happen.

Will the OP keep his car long enough to see the long term effects? Who knows.

ZF8 + filter/pan if you want to do it right.
I paid $26 for ZF6+7 bottles, ZF filter/pan is around $120 on Amazon, plus labor.
So yeah, a little bit over $500.

Well, he has a mix now, so to go back to 100% ZF8 he'll need at least a case of 12 or possibly more. I wasn't even considering the filter, so add that onto the price of a case or two. And labor.

What's done is done, eh?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Everytime this topic comes up the advice is clear: don't screw around with different fluid types unless you're prepared to bet your transmission on it.

The OP has put his money down. It would likely cost $500 or more to go back to ZF Lifeguard 8, and we all know that's not going to happen.

Will the OP keep his car long enough to see the long term effects? Who knows.

ZF8 + filter/pan if you want to do it right.
I paid $26 for ZF6+7 bottles, ZF filter/pan is around $120 on Amazon, plus labor.
So yeah, a little bit over $500.

Well, he has a mix now, so to go back to 100% ZF8 he'll need at least a case of 12 or possibly more. I wasn't even considering the filter, so add that onto the price of a case or two. And labor.

What's done is done, eh?

Well yeah, if he wants to go back he might need more then 12. Reason is that let's assume he does it properly, so no flush. He would have to release as much as possible, that is MAYBE 5-7ltr (7 best case scenario). Drive 100-200 miles, release, put again 5-7ltr, drive 100-200mls, release and then replace filter and add again. In that case he might negate Valvoline (I do not expect that Valvoline will do damage) but not sure about that Lubeguard thing or whatever it is.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: edyvw

Shell produces current ATF for BMW, NOT ZF. That fluid is approved by ZF. Interestingly Shell aftermarket ATF is not approved by ZF. So, I would say there is something that separates ZF from other fluids. I would not bet my transmission on idea that ZF charges that fluid so expensive just because it is ZF. Also, their fluid is tru synthetic fluid since in Germany it is sold as full synthetic. I would say their fluid is made by pentosin or Castrol.
Also, with BMW's it is tricky. Their transfer case fluid is so unique, that very few, if any manufacturers are making aftermarket fluid for BMW TC. Even Redline, that has products that "meet specification" from house blender to jet engine, dos not recommend their TC fluid for BMW's.

Shell and XOM supply the Germans with their ATF. There isn't a agreed-upon "universal" standard for their ATFs via ACEA/DIN, they're just as fragmented as the Japanese. Fuchs/Pentosin tends to rebottle anything that isn't hydraulic fluid.

MaxLife would be close to what ZF wants for friction/hydrodynamics/etc. But there's much fewer ZF/Mercedes/Voith(for buses) transmissions on the road compared to the countless GM/Ford/Aisin/Jatco boxes here in America. Sure, FCA is now using ZF alongside native Mopar gearboxes and maybe Valvoline(or Afton/Lubrizol/Oronite) is testing their AMAM ATF add packs with success in Mopar 8HP/9HP units.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: nthach
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Shell produces current ATF for BMW, NOT ZF. That fluid is approved by ZF. Interestingly Shell aftermarket ATF is not approved by ZF. So, I would say there is something that separates ZF from other fluids. I would not bet my transmission on idea that ZF charges that fluid so expensive just because it is ZF. Also, their fluid is tru synthetic fluid since in Germany it is sold as full synthetic. I would say their fluid is made by pentosin or Castrol.
Also, with BMW's it is tricky. Their transfer case fluid is so unique, that very few, if any manufacturers are making aftermarket fluid for BMW TC. Even Redline, that has products that "meet specification" from house blender to jet engine, dos not recommend their TC fluid for BMW's.

Shell and XOM supply the Germans with their ATF. There isn't a agreed-upon "universal" standard for their ATFs via ACEA/DIN, they're just as fragmented as the Japanese. Fuchs/Pentosin tends to rebottle anything that isn't hydraulic fluid.

MaxLife would be close to what ZF wants for friction/hydrodynamics/etc. But there's much fewer ZF/Mercedes/Voith(for buses) transmissions on the road compared to the countless GM/Ford/Aisin/Jatco boxes here in America. Sure, FCA is now using ZF alongside native Mopar gearboxes and maybe Valvoline(or Afton/Lubrizol/Oronite) is testing their AMAM ATF add packs with success in Mopar 8HP/9HP units.

ACEA/DIN are usually much less stringent then manufacturer specs.
As fro Shell and XOM, you have proof? BMW switched to shell (Castrol was for sure providing differential fluid since they were even selling in Castrol bottles). Also, ZF is full synthetic not just synthetic like lets say Maxlife.
As for Pentosin (Fuchs) I am not referring to what they offer in aftermarket sale, but what they deliver on order from manufacturer.