Armed Forces Question....

[Jelly]

Well, maybe my subject title doesn't exactly sum up what I have to say/ask, but hopefully some of you here will have some answers.

Basically, as some of you know, I'm currently in the process of debating and trying to figure out what I want to do with my life...currently, I'm a college student who, for lack of a better word, is “lost. I have a feeling a lot of college students are in a similar situation such as I’m in...

Anyways, I've narrowed my list down considerably, and at the very top is becoming an pilot. All the branches appeal to me, but at the top of my list by a good margin is becoming a Marine, and then becoming either a passenger or cargo pilot.

Growing up, I always wanted to go into a branch of the armed forces, but ended up not "joining up".

Now, two years into my "college career", the thought of going into the service is of definite appeal to me.

My question at the moment is this:

To become a pilot (in any branch), you need to be an officer.

Now maybe I’m missing something here, but looking at the Marines, Navy, and Air Forces webpages, all you need to do is complete a four-year college program, earn a B.S. or B.A. in something, take a short program (Air Force offers the Officer Training School and the Marines offer the Officer Candidate school), and then you are commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant.

I don’t understand this at all...how does someone just have a bachelors degree, take a class (program, or whatever you call it), and become, for example, a Marine with higher rank and pay than say a master gunney sergeant that’s been in the corps for g-d knows how long.

How do the enlisted men, who have came up the “hard way”, get along with these 2nd lieutenants?

Sorry if this is written poorly...I’m just confused and tired!

 

[tweeker43]

my dad (air force, pfc), would tell you that 2nd lt is not the most loved person in the service, and having worked for one in industry, i would tend to agree.

that said, any branch can provide excellent career training and build your resume. join rotc.

as far as "jumping ahead," i imagine it's like being a wet-behind-the-ears engineer and working with journeymen skilled trades. you may understand thermodynamics, but they won't break the head off that bolt because they forgot righty-tighty lefty-loosy.

there's a chain of command for a reason.

 

[newtoncd8]

I am a Senior Master Sergeant (SMSgt) (E8) in the United States Air Force with just over 18 years in the service in the Intelligence field. I am going to give you my opinion on how it works.

From my experience, wen we get 2Lt's in (either Academy or ROTC grads), they are basically told to follow a senior non-commissioned officer (SNCO) (i.e. Master Sgt, Senior Master Sgt) around -- essentially told to listen, watch, and learn.

If they have listened well, when they pin on Capt, they are ready to start taking on issues.
If they haven't, they generally fail.

I don't believe this is the case for pilots, but it certainly is for Intel officers.

I would highly recommend you give the USAF a good hard look. As long as you don't mind moving every 3-4 years, it can be a very rewarding career choice. YMMV....Curt

 

[sprintman]

I joined the RAAF at 17 and best thing I've done. Electronics training set me up for life. Personally I think it should be compulsory for all citizens to do 12mths for their country as it is in Greece, Israel etc.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

Jelly, at this point in time, the military as a carrer is serious business. I hope you're prepared for the real possibility of combat. I would guess that it's even money.

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jelly:

Basically, as some of you know, I'm currently in the process of debating and trying to figure out what I want to do with my life...currently, I'm a college student who, for lack of a better word, is “lost. I have a feeling a lot of college students are in a similar situation such as I’m in...

Anyways, I've narrowed my list down considerably, and at the very top is becoming an pilot. All the branches appeal to me, but at the top of my list by a good margin is becoming a Marine, and then becoming either a passenger or cargo pilot.

---

If you want to be civilian tranport pilot after you get out of the military, you should fly cargo, refueling, passenger or bomber aircraft in the military.

Any miltary flying experiance is good, but the airlines favor experiance in large aircraft that don't involve a lot of flying on the edge of the envelope and experiance working with a crew.

You stand a better chance of doing that in the AF or Navy.

That said, it's more important that you do what lghts your candle. If you aren't fully dedicated to what you are doing you probably won't make it through military pilot training.

On the 2Lt vs senior NCO issue. A 2Lt gets paid abut as 60% as much as an E8, less if the E8 has over 20 years service. So don't worry about getting paid more than a more experianced senior NCO

Enlisted and Commisioned are two very different career paths. Curtis, the AF E8, did a nice job of describing how it works for non-flying officers.

When I was in the AF, (4 years only), I thought of Lts as embyo officers, not the real thing but the better ones would become real officers some day

 

[Boeing 757 Pilot]

-Sprintman "Personally I think it should be compulsory for all citizens to do 12mths for their country as it is in Greece, Israel etc."


Very true and I agree with you, but the problem is that the US military spends LOTS of money training our fine men and women. And if they were only allowed to serve "compulsory 12 months".... we would never capitalize on the money invested to train them. Thats why enlistment contracts are for 4 or 6 years. And secondly, some kids really don't want to be in the military. They are more interested in playing Xbox or bull s***ing. And you really don't want to have any lazy bums in the military. My brother is in the Navy (NAS Pensacola) and is always telling me stories about some of the bad apples in the service. GOD BLESS AMERICA and the troops here in the USA and deployed worldwide.

[ March 16, 2004, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: Boeing 757 Pilot ]

 

[sprintman]

I meant min 12mths compulsory service and those who select the min get basic type training only. The upside is the discipline etc they pick up after 12mths which can only aid them in civvy life.

 

[outrun]

I mean not to offend any USMC Veterans here.

At least in my experiance as a DoD Intern.

I was personally and absolutely DISGUSTED with the Marines rather arrogant and borderline "anti-american" attitude against the other services.

They must have deep seated personal issues.

Even the junior enlisteds, whom they prided as being "battlefield thinkers" over Army Infantry men. USMC jr enlisted seem to be the most biggoted types I have crossed.

Inter-Service rivalry is quick becoming best to those dinosaurs that need early retirement.

Joint Operations and Command are here to stay- Some Marines need to come to terms with that.

The Marines higher than though attitude I found repugnant. Keep in mind I am trying to be as eloquent as possible without using profanity

How dare you insult the other fighting men and women of the other services. *******

Furthermore do not get me started on some of there outdated and sadistic hazing rituals.

If your interest is aviation?

I would recommend the USAF 1st....amazing crowd in my opinion, USN 2nd and do not discount the USCG they are also an amazing little service.

I know nothing about US Army fixed wing aircraft options.

Unlike the rest of the military services(in peactime that is),the USCG is always on real world missions 24-7.

Most of the Delta Aitlines pilots I knew were all former USAF or USN.

Perhaps Delta understands a few things about Marines *lol*

 

[Boeing 757 Pilot]

Jelly,
You should consider finishing college and joining the Air Force, Air Force Reserve or the Air National Guard. There are many flying slots open for the C-5, C-17, KC-10, KC-135.

 

[Jelly]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

The extent of my military knowledge deals with just knowing and being around people that have served. Around this part of the country (well, I guess more "rural" people than "city" people), it was pretty common with my parents generation (and generations beforehand) for you to go to high school, spend your four years in the service, and then move on to something else in the civilian sector.

When I seriously started researching this, it amazed me to learn that by simply getting a B.S. or B.A. degree in something, you automatically become an officer!

Groucho...I 100% fully understand the possibility of combat. I wouldn't go into the military if I didn't.

In terms of planes, I absolutely want to fly LARGE planes...tankers, bombers, etc. To me, planes are kinda like cars and trucks. Sports cars are fun to read about and look at, but I'd rather drive an 'ol pickup. On that same token, small, fast fighters are fun to look at, but in terms of what I prefer to fly, I'd rather spend my time in a big, slow, lumberin' beast!

757Pilot...Why are there so many openings in the Air Force for pilots of the larger planes?

Which branch is the best to get into for flying large planes and continuing on into a career in commerical aviation?

I am going to finish college, and if I continue to pursue this, I'll either enlist in an ROTC program while in school, or finish up school, and take the programs that will grant me "admission" into the service.

So it's gonna be either the Air Force, Navy, or Marines.

One thing about the Marines...just about every single one of them I've met is 110% proud that they served in the Marine Corps, and continue on after discharge showing their love for the Corps. I can't say that about those who have served in the Army, Navy, or Coast Guard (unless they served in a "special" unit or something...)

Outrun...I met a Delta captain back in high school who was a pilot in the USMC.

Hmmm...who's uniforms look the best?

[ March 16, 2004, 03:30 AM: Message edited by: Jelly ]

 

[Shannow]

Hey Jelly, good luck in what you want to do !!!

While going through the last part of high school, I was in the Air Training Corps for two years (air cadets), it gave quite a few people an opportunity to see if that was the flavour that suited them.

And the most effective, and highly respected, of all of the managers at work is an ex RAAF guy. He doesn't flag it to people's attention, but his general air, personel management, and no nonsense approach to issues makes him a great manager.

 

[The_Jeff]

Just beware of the "holdback" (forget what they call it.) Promise you can get out in "6 years" but then declare an "emergency" and it's basically a draft for those already serving... Stay stuck until the "emergency" passes.

 

[msparks]

Any desire to fly helo's?

The Army Pilot program is pretty good.

As far as I know most of the military branches are wide open as far as slots go.

Some of my best times were riding aboard a UH-60A Blackhawk. Want to talk about a roller coaster ride!!! Fun stuff.

 

[javacontour]

As a former officer, out of the Army ROTC program, you don't AUTOMATICALLY become a comissioned officer. You take classes in college, but certainly not the same amount of immersion as a cadet at one of the service academys.

I then spent 9 weeks the summer between my JR and SR years in college in officer training and evaluation. Six weeks of that was manditory, lots of leadership evaluation, physical evaluation, etc. The following three weeks were optional and I basically served with a real like platoon shadowing the platoon leader, learning what I was getting into.

Even after I was comissioned, I wasn't just thrown out there with troops. I went to another 7 months of training to learn what a Signal Platoon Leader does.

Finally, when I went to my first duty station, I was assigned to a staff position first before I took over as a platoon leader. It was 15-18 months before I even was in charge of more than a handful of people.

I know this is NOT representative of all senior NCO's as I ended up firing my first two platoon sergeants. The first was cheating on his wife with a soldier in another company and lied to me about it. The second was a Burger Bar Ranger. Seems he would assign some task to the platoon and then hang out in the BB and read the Stars and Stripes. Well when we were getting ready to deply on a NATO preTAC eval and I was there and all the Jr enlisted were there, but I couldn't find any of my Sr NCO's, that was the last straw.

He was a "staff" NCO who didn't really care for the leadership role of platoon sergeant and just wanted his ticket punched. He didn't get his 12 months as a "platoon daddy."

My last platoon sergeant was a squared away troop. He knew less about signal than the other two since he came from a Pershing II "artillery unit" (That's what we supported and that is some serious artillery, LOL) and he had the leadership skills and learned what he needed to know about the signal aspect of the job.

So yes, you can learn from a Senior NCO, but like in every other aspect of life, there are good and bad example.

HTH,

TB

[ March 16, 2004, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: javacontour ]

 

[Jelly]

quote:

---

Originally posted by msparks:
Any desire to fly helo's?

---

Yep. I love 'em...probably more than I like fixed-wing aircraft.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that it will be "easier" to land a job as a passenger or cargo pilot in the civilian sector if I choose to fly airlift, tanker, or bomber planes in comparison to rotary-wing aircraft.

 

[Matt89]

Jelly;

You pose a great question about the difference between the officer & enlisted ranks, and you've gotten some good advice. I can tell you from personal experience that it's lonely at the top, and an officer's extra pay and privileges comes with an expectation of "patriotism, valor, fidelity, and abilities" that you'd better be ready to live up to!

Shameless recruiting pitch to follow:

My advice to anyone who wants to do great things for their country on a daily basis; JOIN THE COAST GUARD. We've got a wide variety of missions - from search and rescue to marine safety/pollution to law enforcement to homeland security and a lot of stuff in between. We've got ships, small boat stations and aircraft (helo and fixed wing).

Since our whole service is the size of the NY City Police Department, junior people get a ton of responsibility (Junior Officers with 2 years' experience are in command of our 87' patrol boats; Seamen and Junior Petty Officers drive our 47' rescue boats etc.) If you want to be a rotorhead, plan on saving a few people's lives over the course of your career. If you want travel and adventure, we've got duty stations on both coasts, Alaska, Hawaii, Guam, and ships that go all over the world (from the polar caps to the Middle East). Our helos work from shore stations and deploy on ships. People have to WAIT to go to boot camp for the Coast Guard.

There is a Coast Guard Officer Candidate School at the Academy in New London, CT. If you meet the requirements you have a decent shot at going to flight school (ask the recruiter about applying for the officer "Aviation Candidate" program)...they always seem to need pilots. We get a lot of transplants from the Army, Navy and Air Force...

Good luck!

 

[msparks]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jelly:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that it will be "easier" to land a job as a passenger or cargo pilot in the civilian sector if I choose to fly airlift, tanker, or bomber planes in comparison to rotary-wing aircraft.

---

Yes that is probably true, but hey after 20+ years of flying you shouldn't have worry about working much anyway

Couple of things you can do, join ROTC, then Join the Reserves. You can then get a 2nd LT commission when you gradute as a senior. Plus they automatically give you E-5 pay while you are in the reserves you will be a cadet and they will give you a stipend for you books and such. You can do basic training/AIT in the summer and go to your JR year class in the fall.
http://www.armyrotc.com/index.htm

 

[Propflux01]

C'mon down to Little Rock AFB and learn the C-130 Transport....best of both worlds, fiesty in the turns, but with 4 engines, a crew and places you would never think of landing a plane.

As for the poster who was offended by the MC 'attitude', I think it may have to do with them doing more physical fitness stuff than the other services, and the brainwashing is more pronounced there than in the other services, also. We have a few 'turncoats' that had to have quite a bit of 'attitude retraining' to show them just how little some actually know about the big picture of things. All in the training....

Join the USAF if you want to fly transport, but I would go to a recruiter and get the scoop and MAKE SURE IT IS IN WRITING....

 

[outrun]

Tim,

I am happy the USAF knows how to re-educate those leathernecks on the "bigger" perspective of things.

Jelly,

If your only concern is wearing dress blues, then prehaps your career objectives in aviation need further introspect.

It is not the uniform, its the mind (or pilot at the stick) inside that counts

2nd point, I too am a bit biased having spent considerable time having the privilage of shadowing the ANG and USCG.

The USCG is amazing. And if flight slots are wide open as mentioned...you have your ticket to free military training.

The USCG does have C-130's and some kind of CRJ looking jet thingy i have seen around.

Once your out you will have a MASSIVE edge over civilian trained commercial airline licensured types.

I have known many ROTC air force guys that were shafted out of pilot and navigator slots. It can be a Cr** shoot of sort.

If your gung ho and all consider trying to get a slot on a AC-130 in USAF special operations

, id take that any day over the USMC.

Please be analytical enough to take the USMC proganda at face value.

USAF or USCG my recommendations