Are very low RPMs damaging to engines? Esp. w/load

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I've always wondered if driving at very low rpms under some load is bad for an engine to the point of causing crank/bearing surface contact.

I'm talking about when the car shudders. Obviously not doing that kind of thing on purpose, but sometimes when it happens I 'drive it through' if the situation is improving (or about to improve soon, i.e. just cresting a hill) instead of picking a lower gear. Every time I do that I wonder if I'm causing massive shock loading on surfaces, especially when it gets close to stalling.

Anyone have any conclusive evidence, or opinions?
 
If you're referring to lugging an engine, then yes you can damage the bearings. From your description that's exactly what I think is happening. That typically happens with manual transmissions were drivers don't know what they're doing and use too high a gear for the speed and driving conditions. If the situation occurs don't wait to "drive through it", downshift.
 
What's very low rpm? 600 rpm and WO isn't good! 1600 rpm at 1/4 throttle isn't hurting anything IMO.
I often just leave the Focus in 3rd around town and it pulls smoothly from 1400-1500rpm at reasonable throttle. On the highway I won't let it pull at 1400rpm in 5th as it takes more throttle and time to pick up speed.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
If you're referring to lugging an engine, then yes you can damage the bearings. From your description that's exactly what I think is happening. That typically happens with manual transmissions were drivers don't know what they're doing and use too high a gear for the speed and driving conditions. If the situation occurs don't wait to "drive through it", downshift.


+1 Lugging the engine is murder on the bottom end bearings.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
What's very low rpm? 600 rpm and WO isn't good! 1600 rpm at 1/4 throttle isn't hurting anything IMO.
I often just leave the Focus in 3rd around town and it pulls smoothly from 1400-1500rpm at reasonable throttle. On the highway I won't let it pull at 1400rpm in 5th as it takes more throttle and time to pick up speed.


That tells you nothing about what's happening in the lubricated parts of the egnine....
 
The external forces and noises that the engine produces are caused by forces inside the engine, so you have some idea what the relative internal loads are atleast.
Maybe going by "feel" isn't very scientific, but it is probably fine with lower throttle openings.
 
Probably alright means that the people who designed the package probably got it right...most of the time.
 
Lugging is not a good thing. Combo of low oil flow and high bearing loads along with the fact that the hydrodynamic wedge is somewhat engine speed dependent makes it something to avoid. What constitutes "lugging" is somewhat variable according to the engine but if you feel the engine grunting and groaning... it's lugging. Google the term "mechanical sympathy."
 
Lugging can't be good (downshift), but then again I been lugging myself around for decades and although I can still lug myself around, the top end just isn't there anymore.
Pulling load its better to keep rpm up in range... better for everything.
 
Thanks, I do always downshift when if I feel the revs are getting too low / it makes more noise, but I could definitely make a more conscious effort to make sure it never happens, and it seems that's what I need to do.

While we're at it, do you guys think that turning engine off and back on while warm (i.e. at lights) accelerates wear on anything (apart from starter motor)? To any significant degree?
 
Lugging an engine...

My Dad was a Diesel Mechanic for 25 years for Mack, and he had a problem customer who kept needing engine rebuilds.

This was over the period of several years. Same guy, same truck, same engine problems.

So, my father one day came up with an idea out of the blue. He spoke to the boss, and said I'm going to go out on a "road test" with this customer for a few hours to try and figure out why this guy was always needing engine work.

Boss said sounds good, bring back the bills for your lunches etc and have a good time.

Within 15 MINUTES, my father saw exactly the trouble.

There was an extremely tight turnaround to go under an overpass to get onto the Trans Canada highway, and this guy, with the trailer in an extreme angle and fully loaded, lugs this thing to the point that my father could barely keep his paper cup of coffee from spilling.

I don't remember what gear my dad said this guy was taking this slow turn at, but it was probably 3rd or 4th gear.

So, end of story, don't lug an engine. The bearings take a beating and everything else.

Aside from sitting in a parking lot in neutral and revving the snot out of a car like a kid, lugging an engine is THE worst thing you can do that involves lack of driver experience.
 
I wouldn't allow the car to actually shudder.
Now, you'll find that the engine will pull just fine at lower revs with no shudder at moderate throttle in the higher gears.
You may find it necessary to either allow the car to lose speed or to downshift on some grades.
WOT at low revs in the higher gears is something to avoid, or at least that's how I've always approached driving a stick.
Anyway, the occassional quick downshift is part of the fun of driving a stick.
 
Yes the crank needs to be spinning a certain rpm for a given load. Pulling a hill in 5th gear @ say 1200 rpm or less in a 4 cyl car is not good.

Falkens story about the big truck is true. My old Cummins was designed to run 1700-2100 rpm.any less or more and it would suffer damage eventully
 
I never lug,or redline,any of my engines. Just down shift to the proper gear. Better,more rpms than less rpms,general rule.
 
Originally Posted By: zaibatsu

While we're at it, do you guys think that turning engine off and back on while warm (i.e. at lights) accelerates wear on anything (apart from starter motor)? To any significant degree?


Why to save a few pennies on gas? The more times the starter has to start the engine the more wear on the starter, period. Not to mention if God Forbid you had to move somewhere fast to avoid an accident. Unless your car has start stop technology by design don't do it.
 
These threads remind me of how I used to be; really worried with warming up an engine and not lugging it. As a kid, I would tell my dad not to lug up that hill in 4th, he'd ask me why and I'd imagine the pistons scuffing up against the wall and cringe. I always always started the cars as early as I could when we were going out. My mom would get mad and shut it off for like 30 seconds, then start back up immediately and drive off. But back then, I had no concerns about running 10w40 SG oil in the dead of winter for a car that just drove up the road twice a day to pick up my sister from work, no no, it was about warm up and letting the oil flow. Note: 10w40 + 1 minute drive each way for years, and that engine was still ran great when the fella we sold it to scrapped it.

As I aged, so did my rationale.
Don't be fooled by engine shuddering. It's not how you determine engine strain, or lubrication quality, or wear level. Just because you can feel the engine "shudder" doesn't mean suddenly there are all these massive accelerative forces on the bearings and pins, it just means that the engine's no longer damped internally (via combustion pressures interacting with flywheel mass and engine mass) and now transfers low-frequency harmonics to the mounts. Conversely, just because your balance-shaft fitted undersquare 4 cylinder "feels" smooth at 7K RPM doesn't mean the the reciprocating assembly isn't violently changing directions 233 times each second and accelerating to 4500fpm.

That said though, not all engines shudder at low RPMs. I can pull off from 500rpm quickly and smoothly in 2nd without the engine shaking or combustion becoming unstable (no knocking, clacking). On 4 cylinders, they're just inherently unable to damp their own resonances at 500rpm, but I'll still smooth-engage the clutch at 1K rpm and acceleration right off that, and not worry about it, even with 48mm rod journals and 5w20 re-refined oil in the 1.8L 4 cyl. The pistons in any of my engines don't slap either when cold or lugged. The Camry used to and the GM LX9 rattles a when cold, unloaded- the cringe factor alone will keep you off the throttle in those things.

Some 4 cylinder diesel engines reach their 95% peak torque at 1200rpm and carry it to like 3500. Big whoop.

Originally Posted By: Falken

So, end of story, don't lug an engine. The bearings take a beating and everything else.

Aside from sitting in a parking lot in neutral and revving the snot out of a car like a kid, lugging an engine is THE worst thing you can do that involves lack of driver experience.


No surprise there! While a HD diesel engine can easily chew itself up, most of our engines cant possibly be able to produce the torque and heat that a HD diesel engine can, at an RPM low enough to do any damage. If so, countless V8s and now eagerly upshifting eco-4/6cylinders would be eating themselves alive cruising on the highway and lugging around in the city with their sub-1500rpm acceleration, especially with that water-thin 0w20
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Of course, full throttle at 1400rpm is not ideal, I would prefer 70% throttle at 1400rpm; keep the sequential injector pulses down (hard-limiting fuel consumption), keep the fuel trim not overly enriched (dynamically limiting fuel consumption). So I guess it's combustion stability that's my main concern about lugging, and not mechanical integrity; at least not on my aspirated gasoline engines.
 
Interesting post jrustles.

It's not that I go up a hill in 5th gear and hold full throttle, I'll always back off and let the car slow down if it 'wants to' but I have let it shudder a bit now and then (not heavily, or at least I try to avoid that although it has happened now and then accidentally - try operating a burger, fries and drink together with a stick!).

My engine has over 100,000 miles and it is a high compression NA unit in a hot hatch if you will, slightly aggressive factory cams etc. 4cyl 2L, similar to yours, and has stiffer engine/gearbox mounts so it's possibly causing noticeable shuddering earlier than a softer car. It's either driven very gently for economy (hence this thread, since I accidentally let the revs get a bit too low sometimes) or very hard (mountain runs) and has certainly had a hard life.

By the logic of this thread it should probably be dead by now but still seems to be running absolutely fine. Redline is 7250 and gets hit now and then. Both the previous owner (friend - taken to track occasionally) and I ran it on Mobil 1 0w40 (I stuck with it since it seemed to have a good rep on BITOG), doesn't consume a drop.
 
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I've gone by the shudder/noise factor. If it's not shuddering then it's ok. I think... I'm not sure what causes that shudder/noise, if it's metal on metal or just vibrations overcoming dampening forces though. [And that likely varies from one vehicle to another.]
 
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