Are There Any "Fully Synthetic" Engine Oils...

[bbhero]

Statement of the year.

Kind of like cooking...

It's not just a singular ingredient that makes a food extremely good. It is a combination of many different ingredients coming together, melding together that makes many finished cooked foods turn out amazing.

 

[930.engineering]

Do the grp III+ oils the hold ad-packs in suspension better than a pure grp IV would?

They both provide poor additive response since they both have similar aniline points. There's just a marginal disadvantage for group IV, however both are still insufficient if used pure. Is it even relevant? Both group III/III+ and group IV are never used pure, instead they're blended with group I/II, V (ester and AN). Additive packages already come dissolved in group I/II.

Amsoil Signature
Penrite 10 tenths
Ravenol Racing
Redline
maybe some Rowe
not sure on Nulon

Despite Ravenol sadly doesn't provide SDS, base oils in their Racing line is undoubtedly PAO, ester and AN. Russian oil forum has done plenty of analysis incl IR spectroscopy proving major PAO, ester and AN content. Excellent pourpoint, flashpoint and Noack performance does support it even further. While I'm aware M1 ESP 5W-30 comes very very close and whether these points matter to some forum members or not, as a sum they're still unmatched by group III products. That said, contrary to most PAO/ester/AN using competitors very most Ravenol Racing oils do come with actual approvals. So when it comes to fully synthetic AND approvals, there's actually no competition.

.

 

[4WD]

They both provide poor additive response since they both have similar aniline points. There's just a marginal disadvantage for group IV, however both are still insufficient if used pure. Is it even relevant? Both group III/III+ and group IV are never used pure, instead they're blended with group I/II, V (ester and AN). Additive packages already come dissolved in group I/II.

Amsoil Signature
Penrite 10 tenths
Ravenol Racing
Redline
maybe some Rowe
not sure on Nulon

Despite Ravenol sadly doesn't provide SDS, base oils in their Racing line is undoubtedly PAO, ester and AN. Russian oil forum has done plenty of analysis incl IR spectroscopy proving major PAO, ester and AN content. Excellent pourpoint, flashpoint and Noack performance does support it even further. While I'm aware M1 ESP 5W-30 comes very very close and whether these points matter to some forum members or not, as a sum they're still unmatched by group III products. That said, contrary to most PAO/ester/AN using competitors very most Ravenol Racing oils do come with actual approvals. So when it comes to fully synthetic AND approvals, there's actually no competition.

.

What does that list represent ?

 

[OldCowboy]

Yes, it does point to considerable PAO content, but the labelling per German regulation is the clincher.

Please provide a reliable reference for that German regulation. Otherwise it's hearsay.

 

[madeej11]

nothing to write home about. XOM does it with

PPD's perhaps?

 

[OVERKILL]

Please provide a reliable reference for that German regulation. Otherwise it's hearsay.

Are you freakin' serious? Use the bloody search function, it's been covered, I'm not doing your digging for you.

 

[2EHA]

Please provide a reliable reference for that German regulation. Otherwise it's hearsay.

it’s not in the public domain

take it as a fact or don’t, it’s your choice

 

[OVERKILL]

it’s not in the public domain

take it as a fact or don’t, it’s your choice

There have been a few discussions on it over the years. This quote which appears to be from a court case (which is a translation from German):

The appeal of the applicant will be amended by 26% of the 33th civil chamber of the Civil Court of Justice Courts of Cologne - 33 O 227/13 - and partially changed and followed as follows: The defendant is condemned to refrain from in the course of business for purposes of competition engine oils with the term "T 504 00, 507 00, 5W-30" as "fully synthetic" and let or, as this happens as shown below: (Image / graphic only in original decision). The costs of the legal dispute, including the appeal, carry the applicant to 20% and the defendant to 80%.

This judgment and said judgment of the land court in the society that has received by this judgment is preliminary in the forefront. The respective enforcement debt can turn off the enforcement by security power, if not the enforcement loan is made before the enforcement security. The amount of security is EUR 25,000, for the favorable engine, including the income to the enforcement belief in the amount of the amount to be enforced due to the judgments, for the enforcement belief. The revision is approved.

1 g of the n / a
(2) (instead of the facts and reasons of decision according to § 540 (1) ZPO)
3 I.
4 Both parties sell oil and lubricants. They argue whether the defendant may apply their motto oil "N T 504 00-507 00. SAE 5W30" as fully synthetically.
5 engine oils were conveniently won by mineral base oils (API [API [API [PEATROLEUM Institute] Groups I and II), with a motor oil consisting of about 75-80% of base oils and 20-25% of additives. Since the mid-1970s, engine oils have been made on the market, their base oil shares are not made of mineral oil, but simple basic compounds by polymerization and / or esterification (base oil on PAO [polyalphaolefine) base or dicarboxylic acid esters, API groups IV and V). Another group of the fundamental oils form the so-called hydrocracose oils (API Group III). Such a hydrocracose oil is based on the as a solid synthetic designated oil engineering oil.

6 The applicant has the view that the advertising of the defendant is misleading. The engine oil used by the defendant, the hydration-free-handed engine oil should not be applied as "full-synthetic", as traffic under "full-synthetic" does not understand oil from hydrocracking methods, but those with a basic oil, which are almost completely from PAO or dicarboxylic acid esters. The hydrocracking method does not provide a comparable homogeneous end product relative to base oils from PAO or dicarboxylic acid esters. The hydrocracose oils differ from those of PAO-based not only by shorter side chains of the ISO alkanes. While PAO is 100% of paraffins, this proportion is in the first time between HPDR and 77%. The production is also less costly than those of the API group IV / V. Traffic will be deceived by the application as "fully synthetic" on the operation and quality of the engine oil contested here. There were nothing changed to these relationships and the traffic understanding in recent years.

7 The applicant has requested to condemn the defendant to refrain from the fact that the business "oil-ethical," 50-95, 5W 30 "as a" south-synthetic "to apply and / or appropriate engine oils to be used, and unlike the engine, which is not actually a motor oil with a PAO content of at least 70%.

Which is an excerpt from this post:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...r-hydrogenated-pao.303053/page-2#post-5006389

Shows the lower limit as being 70% PAO.

 

[Jetronic]

GTL base stock isn’t a distillate either. Therefore it is a pure synthetic oil.

They list them as distillates in the msds though, sometimes with Fisher-tropsch added but sometimes not.

 

[kschachn]

They list them as distillates in the msds though, sometimes with Fisher-tropsch added but sometimes not.

Yes I know. Again illustrating using the wrong tool for the job.

 

[4WD]

Are you freakin' serious? Use the bloody search function, it's been covered, I'm not doing your digging for you.

Strange how some try to place burden of proof on others because conventional wisdom is lost on them …

 

[930.engineering]

What does that list represent ?

My answer on the OP's question. Sorry for not being clear enough on that.
.

 

[4WD]

My answer on the OP's question. Sorry for not being clear enough on that.
.

Ok … some are majority IV/V … like Mobil 1 Racing 0W50 …

 

[Obi Wan Noobi]

Please provide a reliable reference for that German regulation. Otherwise it's hearsay.

It has to be printed on every container in Germany. It's either "vollsynthetisch" (full synthetic), "teilsynthetisch" (partially synthetic or mixture), "hc technologie" (hydrocracked), and so on. The container has to clearly and unmistakably describe its content in Germany. It's German consumer law.

Tha Ravenol SSL 0W-40 looks really good. I assume it also contains a healthy amount of Group V base stock.

Just checked the MSDS for Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 and it shows a pour point of -42C, while the one for Castrol 0W-40 shows -57C. The Mobil 1 website lists it at -60C. I wonder if it's a typo somewhere, though I have a hard time believing that M1 has a pour point of -60C when even their excellent 0W-20 which is majority PAO has a pour point of -45C, again, the website shows -54C. Could it be a typo, as their MSDS lists one number and the website lists another.

@High Performance Lubricants where can I find your products for purchase? I would be very interested in trying your motor oil and transmission fluid, I've read a good deal of great things about your products and the UOAs I've seen are very impresive to say the least. Are your engine oils LSPI friendly? Thank you.

 

[tolian21]

The Mobil 1 website lists it at -60C. I wonder if it's a typo somewhere, though I have a hard time believing that M1 has a pour point of -60C when even their excellent 0W-20 which is majority PAO has a pour point of -45C, again, the website shows -54C

Are you saying mobil1 EP 0w-20 has incorrect pour point on website, and its higher than - 54C?

 

[Obi Wan Noobi]

Are you saying mobil1 EP 0w-20 has incorrect pour point on website, and its higher than - 54C?

That's what I just ... said.

Mobil 1 EP 0W-20:

Mobil 1 FS 0W-40:

 

[kschachn]

As someone who used to write SDS (then MSDS) for a living I'm not sure what relevancy pour point has for that type of document. I probably wouldn't use that as a definitive for such a value.

 

[Obi Wan Noobi]

As someone who used to write SDS (then MSDS) for a living I'm not sure what relevancy pour point has for that type of document. I probably wouldn't use that as a definitive for such a value.

I understand that. Just wondering why the website lists one value, and the MSDS lists a different one. Other companies are consistent with their values shown on their respective websites and in their MSDS documents.

 

[OVERKILL]

As someone who used to write SDS (then MSDS) for a living I'm not sure what relevancy pour point has for that type of document. I probably wouldn't use that as a definitive for such a value.

This. The PDS will be far more accurate in this respect.

 

[Obi Wan Noobi]

This. The PDS will be far more accurate in this respect.

They should be consistent with their numbers, I don't think it's that hard, considering that they're the largest oil company in the world. Maybe we should ask Mobil 1 which numbers they consider to be true, as their PDS documents are nothing more than a verbatim copy of the tables on their website.