Are Shell/Exxon better than other Top Tier gasolines?

[fdcg27]

A lot of aircraft owners swear by MMO. They say the friction reducing effect gives them more miles per tankfull. I have seen it posted on this forum by an engineer who owns and builds aircraft.

I know that the FAA allows it, but MMO is a whole 'nother kettle of fish that's been debated here ad nauseam.
I thought that its main attribute was supposed to be a mystical ability to clean everything from injectors to rings?
Maybe you've touched off a new thread?

 

[walterjay]

I know that the FAA allows it, but MMO is a whole 'nother kettle of fish that's been debated here ad nauseam.
Maybe you've touched off a new thread?

I have used it in my vehicles but have never seen a positive effect. Seems to work well in piston aircraft though.

 

[ATex7239]

I know that I consistently get 1.5mpg more with Exxon over other TT fuels.

I have noticed the same thing in my Malibu. People say it isn’t possible cause of this or that but whatever. It does better with XOM 87.

 

[ATex7239]

Our previous Toyota diluted using mostly XOM 87 and now our current Toyota with the same engine hasn’t been diluting on mostly Shell 87 for what that’s worth. Which probably ain’t much but I’ll be sticking with Shell 87.

I don’t believe all fuel for all applications (even TT branded) are created equal.

 

[Kernel Potter]

There’s little incentive to not have ethanol. It increases the octane rating.

For businesses who are doing exploration, extraction, and refining of petroleum, there is an incentive to not have much ethanol in their product. But since they're basically refining cheap swill at 84/85 octane they can benefit from the low cost octane boost. Plus as you mentioned the ethanol will handle any water contamination as another plus. Decades ago they used to refine the same swill end-product, but they spiked it with lead instead. LOTS of lead if you dialed up the Sunoco all the way.

For businesses simply reselling the product, they can make money on both gasoline and ethanol. It will depend on their business model, supply and demand, regulations, commodity costs, etc. I have yet to see an E85 pump, at say a Shell station, but Speedways will sell it.

For my situation I prefer 20 to 25% ethanol. I'd probably be set with a fill and go if I lived in Iowa. Here I need to juice the Costco 87 with some E85 from Speedway - that luckily is nearby. That'll give me about 91 octane for about $3.00 a gallon. Currently I can do better than that price-wise. Plus the blend will act like more than 91 octane with the cooling effect.

With that ratio my 1.4 litre DI turbo pulls smooth and hard even in temps over 90*. And it leaves me with a nice $bonus$ left in my wallet after every fill-up. Cruze forum members mention how much their cars will lay down, knock, feel soggy accelerating, especially in hot weather. Not mine. And sure, they're likely using 87 octane. But think about it; what even makes the 87 octane even bordering on being usable in their application is the 10% ethanol. Just like it was the lead many decades ago. No pure crappoline for me.

By the way the current tank mpg is right about 41 with ~25% ethanol. I do drive trying to optimize efficiency. But we are talking 10:1 compression and 15lbs of boost on a 1.4 litre.

 

[y_p_w]

Nope. BTU content is the same.

There's an inherent range of energy content. But it's not something that's all that easy to control. I heard it's based on the particular crude mixture that's used, and that's constantly changing based on all manner of logistics.

 

[y_p_w]

For businesses who are doing exploration, extraction, and refining of petroleum, there is an incentive to not have much ethanol in their product. But since they're basically refining cheap swill at 84/85 octane they can benefit from the low cost octane boost. Plus as you mentioned the ethanol will handle any water contamination as another plus. Decades ago they used to refine the same swill end-product, but they spiked it with lead instead. LOTS of lead if you dialed up the Sunoco all the way.

From a certain standpoint I understand the refiners actually appreciate octane boosters of any sort, even if they might not be selling it. There's the whole issue of higher demand for higher octane fuels, where it's hard to meet that demand without possibly ending up with gasoline with too low an octane rating to use. I understand it makes it easier to use up what they have.

 

[PontiacHO]

"Ten percent (10%) or less ethanol by volume."

means the same as

"Up to 10% ethanol"

“

"Ten percent (10%) or less ethanol by volume."

means the same as

"Up to 10% ethanol"

Read the next sentence in the statute posted…
“Greater than ten percent (10%) ethanol by volume.”
The purpose of the NC Statue is to ensure that the retailer posts the proper decal at the pumps. Greater than 10% is allowed and from what I’m seeing is what’s posted now. More ethanol may “increase octane” but comes with the negatives of reducing V/L ratio temperature. That’s what causes drivability issues especially during hot weather. More isn’t better…

 

[John105]

Years and years ago I questioned how Exxon is any different from say Lil' Cricket Premium Plus. And an Exxon retailer said ah young grasshopper have a seat and I will tell you the background of unleaded gasoline, going back to when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

Net net is there "IS" a difference between brands.

My question was that if I see Goodman Tank Lines, or Lee Transport, at Costco which is top tier, and also at Wawa which is not, how can gasoline possibly be different, it's a sham, right? Like those super absorbant all purpose wash cloths?

The answer was no, they are not all the same. Only a couple of retail brands actually refine the gasoline, Sunoco being one. The rest get the gasoline from the terminal, and, are given their own proprietary shots of additives. So the tanker you saw filling up Costco, is not headed to BJ's next. The former is branded, the latter is unbranded. he said just him, he would stay away from unbranded gasoline (how many times have we heard that all the customers over x and x weekend had their vehicles damaged by y and z retailers).

There is some chance that Exxon and Mobil and/or Shell are better. But I'm good with Costco which is cheaper and top tier, and I figure a problem is gonna affect a ton of cars and one is going to see it on the news. I know when I got my BMW in Dec. 2006, I mentioned that I filled at Costco and the forum said I don't deserve a BMW. The forum was all V Power hogwashed. They stopped saying that when Costco went top tier. The end.

it's not like

 

[4WD]

Years and years ago I questioned how Exxon is any different from say Lil' Cricket Premium Plus. And an Exxon retailer said ah young grasshopper have a seat and I will tell you the background of unleaded gasoline, going back to when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

Net net is there "IS" a difference between brands.

My question was that if I see Goodman Tank Lines, or Lee Transport, at Costco which is top tier, and also at Wawa which is not, how can gasoline possibly be different, it's a sham, right? Like those super absorbant all purpose wash cloths?

The answer was no, they are not all the same. Only a couple of retail brands actually refine the gasoline, Sunoco being one. The rest get the gasoline from the terminal, and, are given their own proprietary shots of additives. So the tanker you saw filling up Costco, is not headed to BJ's next. The former is branded, the latter is unbranded. he said just him, he would stay away from unbranded gasoline (how many times have we heard that all the customers over x and x weekend had their vehicles damaged by y and z retailers).

There is some chance that Exxon and Mobil and/or Shell are better. But I'm good with Costco which is cheaper and top tier, and I figure a problem is gonna affect a ton of cars and one is going to see it on the news. I know when I got my BMW in Dec. 2006, I mentioned that I filled at Costco and the forum said I don't deserve a BMW. The forum was all V Power hogwashed. They stopped saying that when Costco went top tier. The end.

it's not like
View attachment 302412

Fueling at our Costco is a disaster - they put the pumps at the main entrance coming off a feeder on a busy freeway …
I’ll never do it again …

 

[silversport]

Hugher octane fuel emits less heat when ignited, hence - burns cooler.

I've never heard that higher octane fuel emits less heat when ignited...again, my experience is just different than yours reference high octane fuels...

Bill

 

[silversport]

Higher octane fuel burns more slowly and consistantly. Allows the ECU to advance the timing a bit, so that your at optimum fuel burn is at exactly the correct time. This allows for a slightly higher MPG - but its generally not worth the cost.

All gasoline has the same BTU energy content - regardless of octane. Ethanol has like 10% less energy content.

93 ethanol free is pretty rare but does exist apparently. This website keeps track by state / location and octane level and is pretty accurate in general but does tend to miss some locations. https://www.pure-gas.org/

provided your car's ECU can take advantage of a timing change (not all cars can)...some do the optimum burn with 87 by design...

my comment about ethanol free fuel is in Chicagoland as I don't think it is available...at least not easily available...

Bill

 

[SC Maintenance]

provided your car's ECU can take advantage of a timing change (not all cars can)...some do the optimum burn with 87 by design...

my comment about ethanol free fuel is in Chicagoland as I don't think it is available...at least not easily available...

Bill

Any car built post 1996 can take advantage because they had to be closed loop control.

Some more than others of course. ie something from 1996 with no vvt and low compression may only be a small difference, something with VVT, VVL and high compression built recently might have a significant advantage. But all will benefit. The question is the cost worth it - answer is usually never on all cases.

 

[NibbanaBanana]

Sound more like a KIA problem to me.

Well, the car has over 140K miles on it and other than that has had no problems. Kia has vvt and all the same sensors as any other car so I don't see why other manufacturers would easily be able to tune away problems automatically with the PCM and Kia couldn't.

 

[Burt]

Nope. BTU content is the same.

I think rather than say “burns cooler” it would be better to say the engine has lower exhaust temperature because the higher octane allows the engine to extract more energy out of the btus burned.

 

[goblin]

I'm in the strange parallel world where one of my local Shells is the least expensive station in my area, and in the county altogether.
Add the Shell app, and it's at least $0.10/gal off every time.
It actually made me think that every other gas brand app would be $0.10 off, but it turned out - nope. Some are nothing, others are something sometimes. others are $0.03.

So I've been a Shell all over for the last few years. I guess they can afford those $0.10/gal off because the tend to be the most expensive always, but well. It works in my neighborhood.

 

[ATex7239]

I'm in the strange parallel world where one of my local Shells is the least expensive station in my area, and in the county altogether.
Add the Shell app, and it's at least $0.10/gal off every time.
It actually made me think that every other gas brand app would be $0.10 off, but it turned out - nope. Some are nothing, others are something sometimes. others are $0.03.

So I've been a Shell all over for the last few years. I guess they can afford those $0.10/gal off because the tend to be the most expensive always, but well. It works in my neighborhood.

Exxon/Mobil has a rewards fuel program but it’s a points based system (earn x points per gallon to get y off total purchase price when redeemed) where as Shell just does the discount at the time of purchase. In my area it equals out to all about the same in the end.

I’ve start using Shell over XOM because the gas stations are generally better maintained and nicer around here (all pumps working, paper towels in the dispensers, trashcans not overflowing with bees and flies everywhere, no caked up oily stains on the ground in front of the pump, etc)

 

[y_p_w]

My question was that if I see Goodman Tank Lines, or Lee Transport, at Costco which is top tier, and also at Wawa which is not, how can gasoline possibly be different, it's a sham, right? Like those super absorbant all purpose wash cloths?

The answer was no, they are not all the same. Only a couple of retail brands actually refine the gasoline, Sunoco being one. The rest get the gasoline from the terminal, and, are given their own proprietary shots of additives. So the tanker you saw filling up Costco, is not headed to BJ's next. The former is branded, the latter is unbranded. he said just him, he would stay away from unbranded gasoline (how many times have we heard that all the customers over x and x weekend had their vehicles damaged by y and z retailers).

There is some chance that Exxon and Mobil and/or Shell are better. But I'm good with Costco which is cheaper and top tier, and I figure a problem is gonna affect a ton of cars and one is going to see it on the news. I know when I got my BMW in Dec. 2006, I mentioned that I filled at Costco and the forum said I don't deserve a BMW. The forum was all V Power hogwashed. They stopped saying that when Costco went top tier. The end.

Anyone can transport fuel from the terminal to the gas station as a common carrier. Around here the big one is Kenan Advantage. I think they're now the largest fuel transporter in the United States based on all manner of acquisitions. And I haven't seen a fuel-branded tanker truck in years.

https://www.thekag.com

But for the most part fuel is a bunch of different fungible commodities regardless of where it's refined. It's not always exactly the same, but meets specifications where they meet contract requirements. They're typically shipped across long distances (truck, rail, pipeline) where the equivalent commodity grade fuel from other refiners may be commingled. The brand on the pump may have little to do with where the fuel was refined/cracked. And pipelines are the cheapest way to transport gasoline, where most fuel terminals are owned/operated by pipeline companies like Colonial and Kinder Morgan. The pipeline companies take fuel in and their responsibility is to have that same grade of fuel available somewhere else, similar to how one can deposit at one bank branch and withdraw at another. Unless someone is willing to pay for it, they have no obligation to get the exact same fuel from point A to point B. It's a logistics exercise where they might have another customer shipping that same grade where it's closer.

​

https://www.colpipe.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Product-Codes-and-Specifications-Final.pdf​

Product Codes and Specifications ​

This Section contains specifications for products that are handled on a segregated and fungible basis.​

​

Fungible batch – a batch of petroleum product meeting the Carrier’s established specifications that may be commingled with other quantities of petroleum product meeting the same specifications.​

​

Segregated batch – a batch of petroleum product being the property of a single Shipper and meeting the Carrier’s established specifications.​

There are actually dozens of refining companies in the United States. Not all are household names and there are quite a few small companies. And in any case they mostly push fuel to the pipeline companies and take out equivalent fuel for their gas station customers. Valero sold off its retail operations but they use the name and reportedly have a long-term supply contract. But then again that doesn't mean the fuel at the gas station comes from the refiner. The supply contract can include the use of pipelines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_refining_in_the_United_States
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-products/data/refinery_rank_2024.xls

And you mention Sunoco, which exited the oil exploration and refining business in 2011. They're in distribution and retail now.

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/sunoco-inc-dropping-refini/1911289/​

Published September 6, 2011​

Sunoco Inc. says it's getting out of the refining business.​

​

The Philadelphia company, which owns two refineries in Pennsylvania -- one in Marcus Hook and another in South Philadelphia -- says refining oil into gasoline and other fuels has yielded disappointing returns.​

I get that there's this warm and fuzzy feeling that oil refiners are vertically integrated companies which carefully control quality at every point. But they mostly make commodities and are fine if their customers get equivalent commodities.

 

[3GTL300k]

I'm in the strange parallel world where one of my local Shells is the least expensive station in my area, and in the county altogether.
Add the Shell app, and it's at least $0.10/gal off every time.
It actually made me think that every other gas brand app would be $0.10 off, but it turned out - nope. Some are nothing, others are something sometimes. others are $0.03.

So I've been a Shell all over for the last few years. I guess they can afford those $0.10/gal off because the tend to be the most expensive always, but well. It works in my neighborhood.

I know a Shell that's sometimes the cheapest gas station within an hour drive of it. There's a Shell in Waterlivet, MI that sometimes shows up as the best price is Michigan from the Indiana border on 94 to past Kalamazoo and Battle Creek. I usually end up filling there or Costco in Kalamazoo, MI.

T-Mobile offers an additional Shell savings Tues-Fri through the TLife app into the Fuel Rewards app.

 

[goblin]

Yeah, they have interesting stuff. Like when the teams they sponsor have a game - it's an extra $0.30/gal off. Or if you fill up with Premium on specific days - you get $0.20/gal on the next.
That last one doesn't really work for me because here Premium is now $1.20/gal (used to be $0.90) more than Regular, but it might help on a trip if you find one that is not completely insane.