API Certification
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Originally Posted By: XPR
You have to pay big $'s to get your oil certified by the API.
Last I heard the API license fee was under $1000.
The testing is expensive, the license isn't. Doesn't that make you wonder about companies that claim they meet or exceed API specs but didn't bother to pay the less then $1000 for a license.
It would make no sense to run a series of expensive tests, then not be able to calim API certified because they wouldn't pony up a bit more money for the real deal.
Simple logic says they are claiming to meet API specs without having run the tests.
You have to pay big $'s to get your oil certified by the API.
Last I heard the API license fee was under $1000.
The testing is expensive, the license isn't. Doesn't that make you wonder about companies that claim they meet or exceed API specs but didn't bother to pay the less then $1000 for a license.
It would make no sense to run a series of expensive tests, then not be able to calim API certified because they wouldn't pony up a bit more money for the real deal.
Simple logic says they are claiming to meet API specs without having run the tests.
from the API.org website
FEES
The EOLCS minimum royalty fee for licensure is $1,050
U.S. for API members and $1,250 U.S. for non-members.
Additionally, an annual fee of $0.0015 per gallon of
licensed motor oil after the first million gallons of
production of licensed oil will be assessed. (Please note
that the fees are subject to change.)
>>
BRAVO TO XS650 for a)belling the cat and b)making me get up and go check. you are right, if they DID the tests and wouldn't pay less than the cost of using a colored cap on the oil bottle to get the API cert, they are nuts.
FEES
The EOLCS minimum royalty fee for licensure is $1,050
U.S. for API members and $1,250 U.S. for non-members.
Additionally, an annual fee of $0.0015 per gallon of
licensed motor oil after the first million gallons of
production of licensed oil will be assessed. (Please note
that the fees are subject to change.)
>>
BRAVO TO XS650 for a)belling the cat and b)making me get up and go check. you are right, if they DID the tests and wouldn't pay less than the cost of using a colored cap on the oil bottle to get the API cert, they are nuts.
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They do not state that it MUST be certified, it is RECOMMENDING oils of certain API classes. This is basically to prevent some dumba** from putting in API SA non-detergent oil in the engine because it's less than $1.
The Xw rating won't matter, as it is not an indicator of the oil's physical viscosity. If you'd like, I'll gladly call some local dealers and give you their remarks about using a 0w in place of a 5w/10w oil.
The Xw rating won't matter, as it is not an indicator of the oil's physical viscosity. If you'd like, I'll gladly call some local dealers and give you their remarks about using a 0w in place of a 5w/10w oil.
It has nothing to do with the cost of the certification. And it has nothing to do with testing. It has everything to do with API controlling the formula via basestock interchangeability.
If you really don't think Amsoil tests their oils and also has them tested, that's fine but please don't tell people that because it's simply not true.
Quote:
Will AMSOIL Motor Oils void the warranty of a new vehicle?
Absolutely not! Manufacturers’ warranties are based upon the use of oils meeting specific API Service Classifications, for example, SJ/CF. (AMSOIL lubricants meet the current API Service requirements and, thus, are perfectly suited for use in any new vehicle without affecting the validity of the new vehicle warranty.)
http://www.amsoil.com/dealer/magnuson_moss.aspx
http://www.amsoil.com/performancetests/sequence_3f.aspx
http://www.amsoil.com/articlespr/article_xl7500.aspx
If you really don't think Amsoil tests their oils and also has them tested, that's fine but please don't tell people that because it's simply not true.
Quote:
Will AMSOIL Motor Oils void the warranty of a new vehicle?
Absolutely not! Manufacturers’ warranties are based upon the use of oils meeting specific API Service Classifications, for example, SJ/CF. (AMSOIL lubricants meet the current API Service requirements and, thus, are perfectly suited for use in any new vehicle without affecting the validity of the new vehicle warranty.)
http://www.amsoil.com/dealer/magnuson_moss.aspx
http://www.amsoil.com/performancetests/sequence_3f.aspx
http://www.amsoil.com/articlespr/article_xl7500.aspx
I agree with Pablo on this one.
I was looking for the official Amsoil explanation on the web page and I can't find it - my blood sugar is diving right now. Need a break.
Interesting approach to wiggle around the issue. If one chooses NOT to let a 3rd party independently validate their oil performance, that fine. The concern is the use of the spec name that signifies being independently validated - regardless whether the words meets/exceeds/etc are used.
As far as base oil flexibility, there is indeed some flexibility for each approved add pack formulation. If you wish to formulate outside the flexibility range, you simply have to choose between running the industry standard ENGINE tests or not. There is NO restriction on what base oil(s) or add packs can be used whatsoever.
As far as base oil flexibility, there is indeed some flexibility for each approved add pack formulation. If you wish to formulate outside the flexibility range, you simply have to choose between running the industry standard ENGINE tests or not. There is NO restriction on what base oil(s) or add packs can be used whatsoever.
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I'm getting a little tired of people writing about what a manufacturer can and can't do regarding warranties.
It' easy to say, "the mamanufacturer has to prove your non-certified oil caused the failure". Reality is another story.
If a manufacturer denies a warranty claim because you have non-certified Amsoil in your crankcase, what are your options?
1. Walk away with your tail between your legs and foot the bill.
2. Yell, scream and stomp your feet at the dealership. The only problem is the manufacturer denied your claim. You'll have to deal with them.
3. Show them a copy of the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act. Yeah, that'll set 'em straight! The manufacturer's attorneys will know they are dealing with a Harvard Law graduate and knuckle-under!
4. Take a bunch of your time, which is worthless, find an attorney and sue the manufacturer. Meanwhile, you're car is sitting unrepaired. Your attorney can explain to the jury why you used a non-certified oil insteadof the hundreds of certified ones on the market. I' sure the jurors will understand. Maybe you could call Pablo as a witness! Cool!
After countless hours, attorney fees and not having the use of your car, you win! Yeah! You beat the [censored] that didn't "approve" your use of Amsoil!!! You can now post about it on BITOG.
Wouldn't have been easier to just buy API certified oil?
It' easy to say, "the mamanufacturer has to prove your non-certified oil caused the failure". Reality is another story.
If a manufacturer denies a warranty claim because you have non-certified Amsoil in your crankcase, what are your options?
1. Walk away with your tail between your legs and foot the bill.
2. Yell, scream and stomp your feet at the dealership. The only problem is the manufacturer denied your claim. You'll have to deal with them.
3. Show them a copy of the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act. Yeah, that'll set 'em straight! The manufacturer's attorneys will know they are dealing with a Harvard Law graduate and knuckle-under!
4. Take a bunch of your time, which is worthless, find an attorney and sue the manufacturer. Meanwhile, you're car is sitting unrepaired. Your attorney can explain to the jury why you used a non-certified oil insteadof the hundreds of certified ones on the market. I' sure the jurors will understand. Maybe you could call Pablo as a witness! Cool!
After countless hours, attorney fees and not having the use of your car, you win! Yeah! You beat the [censored] that didn't "approve" your use of Amsoil!!! You can now post about it on BITOG.
Wouldn't have been easier to just buy API certified oil?
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Originally Posted By: Pablo
I found it this AM:
Amsoil and API
Quote:
The cost for running a test program for a single fuel efficient passenger car motor oil formulation ranges from $230,000 to $350,000,
What a JOKE!
Then we add all of the S T U P I D mfg specs (honda, GM, Ford, Mercedes, etc) and how can anyone get any business?
Who needs the government? Looks like the oil companies can give them a run for the $$ for red tape.
Still, since I value my warranty I WILL stay with what they request, but I would NEVER own a car that had their "spec" over normal API stuff.
So I guess that leaves me out of buying some cars.
Thanks Pablo for the link!
Bill
I found it this AM:
Amsoil and API
Quote:
The cost for running a test program for a single fuel efficient passenger car motor oil formulation ranges from $230,000 to $350,000,
What a JOKE!
Then we add all of the S T U P I D mfg specs (honda, GM, Ford, Mercedes, etc) and how can anyone get any business?
Who needs the government? Looks like the oil companies can give them a run for the $$ for red tape.
Still, since I value my warranty I WILL stay with what they request, but I would NEVER own a car that had their "spec" over normal API stuff.
So I guess that leaves me out of buying some cars.
Thanks Pablo for the link!
Bill
excuse me, but i just read that link. what a load of hogwash.
i personally have no opinion on AMSOIL. i do have one about companies that dance around the issue. there are two distinct problems going on here. 1) the issue of warranties 2)the issue of certifications (ie, meets or exceeds).
1) the issue of warranties is very clear. use an API graded oil with the OCI listed in the warranty or forget about your warranty. the M-M act says that you don't have to buy the OC's at the dealer not that you can take of for 40k without an oil change or dump API SA in the car and expect it to work. is it legal to deny a warranty claim due to OCI or type? until you can get a judgment otherwise, it is. i have done 3 lemon law claims in the past 15 years. i won two and lost one, and i put at least 80 hours of prep into each case, and also got master certified mechanic's written opinions twice (the one i didn't was the one i lost). i can tell you that you aren't going to win a lubrication related case (and that means if oil touches it, not if it was caused by) if they can prove you "abused" it. so you can then get a lawyer and try again, but your odds of winning are going to be pretty slim, and you will be out legal fees and car rental if you don't. showing up with a pretty AMSOIL letter is going to matter bumpkis with anyone. the entire process will take over a year. as my father got told in the 80's over a 350 diesel, "go ahead and sue, i have two floors of lawyers to take care of people just like you."
2)certification doesn't just mean API, it also means porsche, GM, FORD, etc. if they don't do the tests on each base oil reformulation, then it ain't. they can say meets or exceeds all day long..HOW DO THEY KNOW? more importantly, if they are changing the base oil so often, how do you know that what came in the last bottle is the same as what you got in this bottle? glad they don't make cat food...
so, at the end of the day it comes down to religion. either you BELIEVE AMSOIL, or you don't. if you do, and you are willing to bet your warranty, go ahead and put it in. if you are out of warranty, and you believe, then go ahead and put it in.
but, don't tell me "meets or exceeds". that's a free ride on the back of the folks that actually do the testing. M1, GC, PP all go through the hoops, not only on API, but VW 502 00, 505 00, 503 01; MB 229.1, 229.3, 229.5; BMW LL-01; GM-LL-A-025, GM-LL-B-025, etc. if amsoil doesn't, fine. just don't tell me "meets or exceeds unless the people running the programs have it listed.
"ahem. now, please be generous as we pass the plate, this morning's services at the First Church of Oil are now concluded. please refrain fisticuffs until you are outside the door."
i personally have no opinion on AMSOIL. i do have one about companies that dance around the issue. there are two distinct problems going on here. 1) the issue of warranties 2)the issue of certifications (ie, meets or exceeds).
1) the issue of warranties is very clear. use an API graded oil with the OCI listed in the warranty or forget about your warranty. the M-M act says that you don't have to buy the OC's at the dealer not that you can take of for 40k without an oil change or dump API SA in the car and expect it to work. is it legal to deny a warranty claim due to OCI or type? until you can get a judgment otherwise, it is. i have done 3 lemon law claims in the past 15 years. i won two and lost one, and i put at least 80 hours of prep into each case, and also got master certified mechanic's written opinions twice (the one i didn't was the one i lost). i can tell you that you aren't going to win a lubrication related case (and that means if oil touches it, not if it was caused by) if they can prove you "abused" it. so you can then get a lawyer and try again, but your odds of winning are going to be pretty slim, and you will be out legal fees and car rental if you don't. showing up with a pretty AMSOIL letter is going to matter bumpkis with anyone. the entire process will take over a year. as my father got told in the 80's over a 350 diesel, "go ahead and sue, i have two floors of lawyers to take care of people just like you."
2)certification doesn't just mean API, it also means porsche, GM, FORD, etc. if they don't do the tests on each base oil reformulation, then it ain't. they can say meets or exceeds all day long..HOW DO THEY KNOW? more importantly, if they are changing the base oil so often, how do you know that what came in the last bottle is the same as what you got in this bottle? glad they don't make cat food...
so, at the end of the day it comes down to religion. either you BELIEVE AMSOIL, or you don't. if you do, and you are willing to bet your warranty, go ahead and put it in. if you are out of warranty, and you believe, then go ahead and put it in.
but, don't tell me "meets or exceeds". that's a free ride on the back of the folks that actually do the testing. M1, GC, PP all go through the hoops, not only on API, but VW 502 00, 505 00, 503 01; MB 229.1, 229.3, 229.5; BMW LL-01; GM-LL-A-025, GM-LL-B-025, etc. if amsoil doesn't, fine. just don't tell me "meets or exceeds unless the people running the programs have it listed.
"ahem. now, please be generous as we pass the plate, this morning's services at the First Church of Oil are now concluded. please refrain fisticuffs until you are outside the door."
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This seems like an unrealistic "What if..." Has a car manufacturer ever denied a warranty claim because they tested a cars used oil, to determine the oils origin and whether or not it's API (Starburst) certified? Is that even possible? If so, I would really like to figure out what was used as the factory fill in our Suzuki SX4...
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Quote:
but, don't tell me "meets or exceeds". that's a free ride on the back of the folks that actually do the testing. M1, GC, PP all go through the hoops, not only on API, but VW 502 00, 505 00, 503 01; MB 229.1, 229.3, 229.5; BMW LL-01; GM-LL-A-025, GM-LL-B-025, etc. if amsoil doesn't, fine. just don't tell me "meets or exceeds unless the people running the programs have it listed.
You're in absolutely no different status with using a Fram, Purolator, Wix, etc...oil filter. They too DO NOT match OEM specifications as prescribed by the OEM (some "may"). They all "meet or exceed" OEM specifications. If your oil filter is deemed responsible for the destruction of your engine AT ANY TIME warranty of NOT, you're going after the filter manufacturer, not the engine manufacturer.
So, "you can take your chances" with buying ANYTHING EXCEPT what the parts guy at the dealer sells you (which may very well NOT have the OEM logo on it) if you're into taking risks. Go ahead and buy an M1 or a PureOne if you have the courage ..but you have to ask yourself, DO YOU FEEL LUCKY??
Well, do you??
but, don't tell me "meets or exceeds". that's a free ride on the back of the folks that actually do the testing. M1, GC, PP all go through the hoops, not only on API, but VW 502 00, 505 00, 503 01; MB 229.1, 229.3, 229.5; BMW LL-01; GM-LL-A-025, GM-LL-B-025, etc. if amsoil doesn't, fine. just don't tell me "meets or exceeds unless the people running the programs have it listed.
You're in absolutely no different status with using a Fram, Purolator, Wix, etc...oil filter. They too DO NOT match OEM specifications as prescribed by the OEM (some "may"). They all "meet or exceed" OEM specifications. If your oil filter is deemed responsible for the destruction of your engine AT ANY TIME warranty of NOT, you're going after the filter manufacturer, not the engine manufacturer.
So, "you can take your chances" with buying ANYTHING EXCEPT what the parts guy at the dealer sells you (which may very well NOT have the OEM logo on it) if you're into taking risks. Go ahead and buy an M1 or a PureOne if you have the courage ..but you have to ask yourself, DO YOU FEEL LUCKY??
Well, do you??
Even though I'm a confirmed long time Amsoil user, all of the above is why I only use & suggest the XL line of Amsoil while under warranty. Right or wrong I don't care but if it avoids an arguement with a possible warranty issue I'll continue to do such.
I wrote &/or overlooked warranty claims for Cummins, Chevrolet, Buick, GM trucks, International, Ford plus several snowmobile and outboard dealers. Trust when I say if you give the manufacturer an inch, they'll go for a mile if they spot blood.
I always went to bat for the customer unless I saw real abuse.
I've had a couple regional reps that were true bean counters. Some will if at all possible tie you up while you rent a car if you won't foot the bill and work it out later.
When it came to oil issues regarding warranty with a non certified oil I've never seen one but I'll bet there are a few out there.
I wrote &/or overlooked warranty claims for Cummins, Chevrolet, Buick, GM trucks, International, Ford plus several snowmobile and outboard dealers. Trust when I say if you give the manufacturer an inch, they'll go for a mile if they spot blood.
I always went to bat for the customer unless I saw real abuse.
I've had a couple regional reps that were true bean counters. Some will if at all possible tie you up while you rent a car if you won't foot the bill and work it out later.
When it came to oil issues regarding warranty with a non certified oil I've never seen one but I'll bet there are a few out there.
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filters are a whole 'nuther ballgame, and (more importantly) not the subject here. if there were published filter specs (and gods knows there ought to be) we could talk about it.
to the other poster, yes, car companies can and will ask for receipts for the oil change and/or filter, which should either indicate the mileage or have a date (for oil purchases) around the time of the oil change. you may have a problem if you have an oil cellar and pulled the PP '06 (a mild oil with a nice bouquet) from your stock of 7500 bottles. OTOH, show them a pic of your stock and that question may go away....
to the other poster, yes, car companies can and will ask for receipts for the oil change and/or filter, which should either indicate the mileage or have a date (for oil purchases) around the time of the oil change. you may have a problem if you have an oil cellar and pulled the PP '06 (a mild oil with a nice bouquet) from your stock of 7500 bottles. OTOH, show them a pic of your stock and that question may go away....
Quote:
Has a car manufacturer ever denied a warranty claim because they tested a cars used oil, to determine the oils origin and whether or not it's API (Starburst) certified?
They say "Please show us your oil change receipts...."
Has a car manufacturer ever denied a warranty claim because they tested a cars used oil, to determine the oils origin and whether or not it's API (Starburst) certified?
They say "Please show us your oil change receipts...."
Originally Posted By: buster
...small boutique brands (RP,RL,Torco etc).....
Buster - you do make a good point (and you can add RLI as well!), if this wasn't Amsoil, I doubt we would be having this chat!!
I sell a LOT of oil to people with brand new cars (really a variety of Amsoil products) and have zero warranty problems. Multiply that by all the Amsoil dealers out there and then look for all the complaints???? You would think there surely would be some ending up on a fairly popular oil bulletin board! Or on the web!
...small boutique brands (RP,RL,Torco etc).....
Buster - you do make a good point (and you can add RLI as well!), if this wasn't Amsoil, I doubt we would be having this chat!!
I sell a LOT of oil to people with brand new cars (really a variety of Amsoil products) and have zero warranty problems. Multiply that by all the Amsoil dealers out there and then look for all the complaints???? You would think there surely would be some ending up on a fairly popular oil bulletin board! Or on the web!
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