Anything thinner than 0w-20w?

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: zloveraz
Quote "The new SAE 16 grade is expected to have minimum impact on the North American engine oil market, since it is being specified by only one automaker (Honda) for 2013 model year engines. Honda says tests show that its current design engines can gain fuel economy benefits and maintain adequate durability from oils with viscosity grades lower than SAE 0W-20."


We must first define adequate. It's a loaded word, certainly not meaning superior, better, or best, at least to me. The word to me means average, OK, or fair. Definitely a word I wouldn't brag about or use to make a sale. I wouldn't be too happy if I went up to open school night and the teacher told me my kids work was adequate. Or maybe someone plans on hiring a contractor to renovate their home and he pitches the job saying his work is adequate. I'd pass and hire someone else.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: zloveraz
Quote "The new SAE 16 grade is expected to have minimum impact on the North American engine oil market, since it is being specified by only one automaker (Honda) for 2013 model year engines. Honda says tests show that its current design engines can gain fuel economy benefits and maintain adequate durability from oils with viscosity grades lower than SAE 0W-20."


We must first define adequate. It's a loaded word, certainly not meaning superior, better, or best, at least to me. The word to me means average, OK, or fair. Definitely a word I wouldn't brag about or use to make a sale. I wouldn't be too happy if I went up to open school night and the teacher told me my kids work was adequate. Or maybe someone plans on hiring a contractor to renovate their home and he pitches the job saying his work is adequate. I'd pass and hire someone else.

Not a good analogy.
When it comes to viscosity, you want the oil to be just thick enough to avoid metal to metal contact. Anything thicker than that is excess viscosity. Consequently the word 'adequate' could in this context be replaced with 'optimized' which gives a whole different perspective.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: zloveraz
Quote "The new SAE 16 grade is expected to have minimum impact on the North American engine oil market, since it is being specified by only one automaker (Honda) for 2013 model year engines. Honda says tests show that its current design engines can gain fuel economy benefits and maintain adequate durability from oils with viscosity grades lower than SAE 0W-20."


We must first define adequate. It's a loaded word, certainly not meaning superior, better, or best, at least to me. The word to me means average, OK, or fair. Definitely a word I wouldn't brag about or use to make a sale. I wouldn't be too happy if I went up to open school night and the teacher told me my kids work was adequate. Or maybe someone plans on hiring a contractor to renovate their home and he pitches the job saying his work is adequate. I'd pass and hire someone else.

Not a good analogy.
When it comes to viscosity, you want the oil to be just thick enough to avoid metal to metal contact. Anything thicker than that is excess viscosity. Consequently the word 'adequate' could in this context be replaced with 'optimized' which gives a whole different perspective.


As far as word choices it all comes down to opinion, I'll pass on the thick thin war. I was just commenting on the word they picked. Adequate was a poor choice of a word. It doesn't leave me feeling all warm and fuzzy. I thought the analogy was spot on for the poorly picked word they used. I wonder why they skipped over the word superior? Optimized is sketchy too, but better than adequate. Superior, now that's cut and dry, its a great word for selling and driving a point home. Opinions vary.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: zloveraz
Quote "The new SAE 16 grade is expected to have minimum impact on the North American engine oil market, since it is being specified by only one automaker (Honda) for 2013 model year engines. Honda says tests show that its current design engines can gain fuel economy benefits and maintain adequate durability from oils with viscosity grades lower than SAE 0W-20."


We must first define adequate. It's a loaded word, certainly not meaning superior, better, or best, at least to me. The word to me means average, OK, or fair. Definitely a word I wouldn't brag about or use to make a sale. I wouldn't be too happy if I went up to open school night and the teacher told me my kids work was adequate. Or maybe someone plans on hiring a contractor to renovate their home and he pitches the job saying his work is adequate. I'd pass and hire someone else.

Not a good analogy.
When it comes to viscosity, you want the oil to be just thick enough to avoid metal to metal contact. Anything thicker than that is excess viscosity. Consequently the word 'adequate' could in this context be replaced with 'optimized' which gives a whole different perspective.


As far as word choices it all comes down to opinion, I'll pass on the thick thin war. I was just commenting on the word they picked. Adequate was a poor choice of a word. It doesn't leave me feeling all warm and fuzzy. I thought the analogy was spot on for the poorly picked word they used. I wonder why they skipped over the word superior? Optimized is sketchy too, but better than adequate. Superior, now that's cut and dry, its a great word for selling and driving a point home. Opinions vary.

Motor oil viscosity is a technical subject where feelings like "warm and fuzzy" really have no place nor does the word "superior". Viscosity is what it is. An "optimized" viscosity tells you what you want know; not to too heavy, not too thin; just right.

I agree "adequate" is a poor word choice particularly from a marketing perspective, but I wouldn't read anything more into it that.

 

[demarpaint]

^^ A technical subject for sure. You missed my point which was their poor choice of words. Keep in mind Engine Oil is a very competitive industry, where word choices are very important for sales. How do you think Pennzoil has some of our members convinced PU is so good at cleaning, or Amsoil is the best? Most of it comes from words in advertisements. Words make people feel warm and fuzzy, comfortable, confident, whatever! Its that feeling, or assurance that sells. Their choice of "Adequate protection" isn't going to sell me on that grade of oil, sorry.

 

[CATERHAM]

Your missing my point.
You're drawing a false conclusion about an oil grade based on a single word rather than the technical aspects of the oil grade itself. In other words, you using that word to support an irrational thick oil biase.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Your missing my point.
You're drawing a false conclusion about an oil grade based on a single word rather than the technical aspects of the oil grade itself. In other words, you using that word to support an irrational thick oil biase.


If you say so. I said it was a poor choice of words, but while we're on the topic of bias. When they've logged 15 trillion [or some number like that] miles like was mentioned in one of these threads about 20 grade oil, we can talk about how good or bad it is. Until then the jury is out. If 20 grade oil had 15 trillion miles logged on it I wonder how many miles 30 grade oils have been used for? That's another topic for another thread. LOL

 

[hardcore302]

Driven Racing and Klotz Lube make straight 0 weights.

 

[wolf_06]

water

 

[Ken2]

Honda's new 0W-16 oil is more than just a lighter viscosity. The next ILSAC spec, GF-6, will have two options, GF-6A & GF-6B. The Honda oil will meet the GF-6B spec. They used the "16" wt to show the unwashed masses that it was something quite different from 0W-20.

Here's more about GF-6B. It is intended to be in viscosity grades 0W-16 and 5W-16 and NOT backward compatible to older engines that called for GF-5 0W-20 or 5W-20.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Ken2
Honda's new 0W-16 oil is more than just a lighter viscosity. The next ILSAC spec, GF-6, will have two options, GF-6A & GF-6B. The Honda oil will meet the GF-6B spec. They used the "16" wt to show the unwashed masses that it was something quite different from 0W-20.

Actually they settled on the "16"wt instead of the more logical 15wt grade so that there would be no confusion with the 15w40 grade.
The new grade's viscosity range, as I pointed out earlier, actually overlaps with the SAE 20 grade. It will be interesting to see what the actual viscosity spec's will be of the OEM Honda 0W-16 when it becomes available and who will make it for them here in North America.

 

[sikpupy]

I was just wondering how far the oil manufacturers were pushing things ad if there was actually something out there that was thinner than 0w-20.

Its interesting to see that they are playing with thinner weights. Makes me ask how they rate what engine needs what oil? Could also dictate what engines will be in the future also.

 

[aquariuscsm]

http://www.latracingoils.com/store/product_info.php/lat1-ultra-lightweight-gallon-p-40

 

[artificialist]

Here is a thread where someone actually used 0w5 in their car and reported on it:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/neo-0w5-racing-synthetic-25k-vw-golf-1-9tdi-alh.189343/

 

[sikpupy]

Ugh............ Something else to keep me up past 2am, lol.

Thanks guys.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
Here is a thread where someone actually used 0w5 in their car and reported on it:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/neo-0w5-racing-synthetic-25k-vw-golf-1-9tdi-alh.189343/

And with a KV100 of 8.2cP it is a 20wt oil.

Again the lightest oil on the market by far is Sustina 0W-20 with it's 229 VI.
When Honda comes out with it's 0W-16 grade later this year it certainly won't have a VI that high so it won't be appreciably lighter than Sustina on start-up if at all.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

We must first define adequate. It's a loaded word,


+1. Hugely loaded. No marketing department would ever use "adequate" over "optimized" or any other euphemism if they didn't legally have to. One thing the statement strongly suggests is that wear protection will NOT be improved over the current GF-5 20's, only that the intention is to further reduce oil drag.

Now, it just seems that so much importance is being put on oil drag and pumping losses these days, with more and more of the wear-resistance duty being put upon the additive chemistry. If my new 2015 Honda Fit engine will see even more boundary lubrication conditions with it's normal operating conditions (netting the same wear protection as GF-5 via additives), then I don't even want to think about what happens to the GF-6B when operating conditions become more extreme that that! Surely the engines specified for it will have some type of modifications to limit the inherent negatives, but those are compensatory measures.

Put short, the new GF-6 should provide the same overall wear protection as GF-5, but not without a cost; The 0w16 would expectedly have an even smaller margin of error ie. during overheat, extended high speed operation etc.

Alas, I'll still be trying out quality 0w16s in built, high RPM engines with a high volume oil systems. Just as long as it's not overheated, should be good for a HP or two on the dyno.

 

[CATERHAM]

That of course is pure conjecture on your part.
The FF on the Honda Fit has been sub 20wt oil since inception.
For a low power out engine, a light oil would appear to be no issue at all. Simply having the shear stability of modern syn' oils enough in the way of technical advancement.

Just take a look at the Ford Mustang GT with over 400 hp that's spec'd for 5W-20. You can track this car (it doesn't even have an oil cooler) without issue on the spec' oil, and temp's as high as 230F still won't activate the electonic safety management systems to limit power if the oil gets too hot and therefore too thin.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

We must first define adequate. It's a loaded word,


+1. Hugely loaded. No marketing department would ever use "adequate" over "optimized" or any other euphemism if they didn't legally have to. One thing the statement strongly suggests is that wear protection will NOT be improved over the current GF-5 20's, only that the intention is to further reduce oil drag.

LOL with all the words in the English language they could have picked a better word to sell thin is in. Time to hide.

LOL

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
That of course is pure conjecture on your part.
The FF on the Honda Fit has been sub 20wt oil since inception.
For a low power out engine, a light oil would appear to be no issue at all. Simply having the shear stability of modern syn' oils enough in the way of technical advancement.

Just take a look at the Ford Mustang GT with over 400 hp that's spec'd for 5W-20. You can track this car (it doesn't even have an oil cooler) without issue on the spec' oil, and temp's as high as 230F still won't activate the electonic safety management systems to limit power if the oil gets too hot and therefore too thin.



Well, the ILSAC chart indicates absolutely no improvement in wear protection. The improvements are all oxidation and viscosity related; fuel economy, thickening, deposits, sludge- and a slight bump on "preignition" resistance- which may indicate a reduction in traditional detergents (Ca?)

The 16's I'm not so worried about, some of them are labelled 20's today and as mentioned I'd like to test some out with high flow oil systems, it's the "Resource Conserving" 0w10's I worry about. Will they now be stout ester/pao based like the Bruceblend, or will they be primarily GrIII(+) as usual with even more additives but with a reasonable cost?

I did not know that Fit has a sub-5.2cSt fill installed, but also wouldn't be surprised considering Honda lead on the push to ever thinner. Light weight oils have always been used in racing, they're great in that they don't generate as much heat when being mechanically sheared (to support your Mustang example), and with a high volume oil system, the oil can be replaced on the hot/wear surface quicker, however no one can deny their inability to sustain localized hot spots or extreme forces such as those generated by high cylinder pressures during severe duty. Thus there is clearly a further reduction in the 'margin of error' allowed. I don't doubt any new 10s and 16s will be loaded with Moly and/or Boron like the current super-low-viscosity selections.