Any Actual FRAM failures?

[Mystic]

Brand J is a perfect oil filter. There has never been an observed failure of Brand J.

We accept the testimony only of an engineering staff of professional oil filter design engineers with a minimum of ten years experience each in the design of oil filters. There must be a minimum of ten such engineers present at any observed failure of Brand J. There must also be an attorney from the company present during the failure.

Now, it has come to our attention that non professionals are claiming that they have observed failure of our oil filters. These people (approximately 10,000) are not qualified to give an opinion on oil filter failure, since they are not engineers and the above requirements have not been met.

Therefore, there has never been an observed failure of one of our Brand J oil filters. It has a perfect record in the field.

 

[Pluto5]

Ray H.--you sound like a lawyer. FRAM may not be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt but look at the preponderance of evidence! LOL

 

[Dan4510]

Many a murderer has been convicted on only circumstantial evidence with utterly no physical evidence or a body to be found.

Dan

 

[labman]

I have run Fram filters in the past and can't point to any problems
from them. I never had any start up noise or anything. The more
time I spend here, the more it looks like engines will be fine with
any oil or filter as long as they are changed often enough.

Still, why buy a Fram, when for about the same or less, I can buy a
filter that looks better when cut open? I don't know that my truck is
any better off with an AC with 255 sq. in of filter area as compared
to Fram's 84 sq. in., but why not? Perhaps the Wix or Mobil 1 are
better than the AC, but I have seen nothing to convince me the
higher price is worth it.

I think the references to lawyers was more the idea that nobody has
collected damages from Fram. In civil actions the evidence does
not need to be as strong as in criminal actions. On the other hand,
perhaps Fram could collect from me if I said Fram filters stink. On
the other hand I am perfectly free to keep harping on cutting open
filters, and finding Fram a poor last on area. You can't lose a
judgment for desalinating facts. Keep posting UOA's, good and bad
as long as they are true.

 

[kctom]

I have used Frams for 30 years or more. I have never had a problem. I have searched the internet and have found no direct evidence of any Fram failures that caused engine damage. I have found two people who claim to have a defective Fram filter. In both cases the filter suffered a crushed center tube. According to the Filter Manufacturing trade group, this failure is almost always caused by problems external to the filter.

I have never seen a picture of a Fram filter in which the cardboard endcaps had failed, unless the center tube was crushed.

I have seen some of reports of clattering valves on start-up with Fram filters. I have seen reports of this problem with other brands of filters also. In most cases, switching to an OEM filter solves the problem. My guess is that the oil leaks past the threads of the filter at the base. My 98 toyota does fine with its Fram filter mounted upside down. If you experience excessive valve clatter with any filter, change brands.

I don't place much value on this "the filter had no oil in it when I pulled it." If this was acutally the case, a good mechanic would have noticed the excessive delay in oil pressure upon start-up.

I give some value to first hand antidotal evidence. Second hand antidotal evidence is pushing it too far.

 

[Mystic]

I agree with kctom's reply in many ways. I do put value in first hand testimony, although sometimes you really have to look at who is giving you that first hand testimony. If you are researching oil filter failures in the field, you better get used to interviewing not just oil filter experts-you are going to have to talk to Joe Ordinary and Sue Ordinary. It is highly likely that most oil filter failures will take place with just ordinary people, not merely with oil filter experts. But some people are unreliable. If somebody tells a story about an oil filter failing, how do we know that story is the truth? The other side of that coin is that you cannot reject somebody's story just because they are not an expert on oil filter design.

How do we know what to believe on the internet? I think that this web site is surely a good place to find out about motor oils, oil filters, etc. Some of the people who come to this web site ARE experts. But the internet in general is a very uncertain place. Somebody could create a web site and come up with all sorts of convincing but false information.

This makes me think of some of the stuff I heard in the past, and not just on the internet. I heard all kinds of negative stuff about Pennzoil oil, from people who seemed to be knowledgeable people. I heard so much negative stuff that I switched to another brand of oil. Judging from VOAs and UOAs that have been plublished at this site, I would have been wiser to have stayed with Pennzoil.

Look at some of the infomercials that people have come up with to try to sell oil supplements and engine treatments to people. A lot of this stuff seemed to be pretty convincing. Let us be honest-some of us bought the stuff, right?

But do not slam people just because of a personal experience they tell us about. Just because somebody is not an expert does not mean that their personal story may not be useful to the people at this web site.

The main thing is-we can discuss whatever we need to discuss without getting personal about it. Okay?

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

I have been using a fram filter on my car for the last 5? oil changes? Anyway, so far, I've not seen the fram give any problems. My filter sits sideways so it would be prone to leak back if the adbv was to go bad. From what I've learned about fram, it has provided a reduction on my wear numbers due to increased flow rates. Now, is this because the bypass is kicking in sooner? no idea and no way for me to test that.

As for the filter tests, I plan on resuming them soon. These tests are reported with all the facts as I know them. I'm not cutting open filters but by using pressure gages, I demonstrate flow on different types and brands of filters.

As for evidence, I do hear a lot of bad press on Fram's, but I've reserved my comments and have only based my opinion on what my experience/ experiments have been. This information is available to all and can be disputed. The other thing is that this open forum allows for anyone with any company the opportunity to chime in and bring to the table any information that may support of dispute our findings and or comments. This is an equal opportunity board and doesn't discriminate toward or against any one company and we encourage any company to join in as some have and we all benefit from these joint efforts.

The idea behind this board when I first started it was to bring out as much valid information as possible via oil analysis, new and used and any other tests and data made available. I think we have accomplished our goal. I know we get visits all the time from major companies and we've seen some changes in oil formulations shortly after we "beat up" on it in our findings. Next thing, we are finding different results and looking better. Much of this I think is due to our work where we are all reporting "real world" experiences/results, giving everyone the ability to put it to the tests. As many have seen, there are a bunch of highly qualified individuals that share with everyone and between them, personal experiences, and the technical data available, we've been able to make some great choices, learn alot from these things as well. One last note, notice, we do not allow sales pages of different products as we are not interested in what a company/product claims but what it actually can or cannot do. With this, we have clearly found that several companies have made claims that far out weigh the evidence that we've compiled and now most all of us now know the truth about those claims. So, stick around, watch, listen, and when you see something that doesn't' sound right, call it down and debate on the issue/subject. I've done that on several so called self proclaimed experts who judged the schaeffers oils with no evidence to support their claims.

As for the fram filters, I have to admit, I do see many making negative comments, but in reality, I too have yet to see any real evidence to support those claims, other than people judging the end-cap construction as bad which I've seen in another filter as well. To date, I've never seen a bad one due to any construction problem.

 

[Mystic]

Bob, you had such low wear figures using a FRAM and Schaeffer's oil that I think I will try a FRAM at my next oil change. You used just the regular orange can one, right?

 

[Ray H]

Flame all ya' want, boys, but as I recall the title of this thread is, "Any Actual FRAM failures?". To that end, my reference along documented technical or case law parameters would've established such failure if it exists. Like I said, anecdotal evidence is fine, but it's insufficient to rely on as actual (as in, "material") evidence, okay?

I guess for some, aunt Susie's grand niece's boyfriend's cousin's brother's (who works at a 7-11 store), experience is all the "proof" that's required to condemn a brand. I believe the majority of posters who offer anecdotal evidence do so in good faith. I hope ALL do. But the practice of leading to conclusion through intimation is also fraught with the seeds of libeling a product with no fear of personal exposure. Think about it. I'm neither a sponser nor a distributor. What did I possibly have to gain by suggesting some measure of objective evidentury research into the matter? To his credit, BITOG put his personal imprimitur on his own positive experience with Fram filters, but is such reliance in an individual's honesty applicable to all members with vested interests? Again, I hope so, but... BTW, I haven't used Frams in decades, nor do I own stock in Allied Signal. Reason for not using Frams? I'm cheap.

[ July 04, 2003, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mystic:
Bob, you had such low wear figures using a FRAM and Schaeffer's oil that I think I will try a FRAM at my next oil change. You used just the regular orange can one, right?

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That is correct, the cheapest, ph3600 filter I can find. It does have the black grip area on the bottom and is not the x2 super guard or what ever they call it.

 

[Chris 2421]

My Fram experence goes back to 1970.That's when I noticed my Dad using them on the Road Runner I have today.When I got my first car,I too became a Fram user.I still use them today in my race car,and after all these years we have never had any engine failures,nor have we had any problems using any Fram filter.

I also have seen Fram used in customers cars when I was a technician for a Chrysler dealer,and they are used at my current place of employment,again with no problems.I've also never seen or heard of any Dodge engine with any type of noise due to using a Fram filter.

 

[Patman]

Do a Google search and you'll find some scary stuff, here is one I found:

quote:

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I used Fram once with disasterous results. About 4 years ago, I decided to change my oil one Sunday. Unfortunately, no Acura dealers were opened on Sunday. So, I ran to my local Pep Boys and puchased myself an equivalent Fram filter. Did my oil and filter change as usual and went for a test drive. After about 20 mins driving around, I decided to take it to about 100 mph. Guess what, my oil presure dropped to zero and one of the idiot lights started blinking.

I immediately shut the engine off and assesed what had happen. There was smoke coming from the rear right side of the car but not on the left. Believe me, it was a scary experience. I was almost in tears while I pulled off the side of the road. I got out of the car and saw a trail of oil on the road leading up to my car. I remember praying as I carefully peeped under the car. First thing I noticed was the car's left underside was very clean. I decided to jack up the car right there and then so I could see more underneath. Further examination revealed the Fram rubber seal burst spilling most of the oil out of my engine.

I told myself then, I will never ever use a non-factory filter my my NSX again. The next day, I took my car to the dealer and had them checked everything in my engine. Fortunately, the dealer said the engine has no detectable damage. It took at least 3 under carriage steam cleaning before I got all the oil out of the little crevices under the car. The moral of the story, don't skimp on oil filters, use the oil filter specifically designed for you car.

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[Patman]

quote:

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VW filters (made by MANN) had a more rigid casing. There were also more welds to hold the casing and the top together. This is important as oil pressure may blow the oilfilter appart. (Uncommon, but known to happen [Recently several cases were reported on Corrados G60s & Porsche 944s where the FRAM filters ruptured or the seal gave way, destroying the engines. Factory warrantee was voided, the person in the 944 however won a case against FRAM].
VW had two spring loaded valves (anti backflow & bypass) while FRAM had one spring loaded and one rubber membrane type valve. The anti-backflow valve will prevent retain most/some of the oil from draining out of the engine, thereby supplying the engine with hard needed oil immediatly at start up. Presumably, the springloaded anti-backflow valve will do the job better then the rubber membrane. The bypass valve alows oil to bypass the filter when the filter is either clogged or too viscous. I read somewhere else that the FRAM's bypass valves are sometimes set too low such that no filtering ever happens.
The parts to which the ends of the filter element was attached were metal in the VW filter and cardboard in the FRAM filter.
The pleats of the filter element were neat and regular in the VW, croocked and held together with a little string in the FRAM.
How the actual filtering compares, I don't know. According to Consumer Reports, they are similar (but the rest ISN'T).

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[Mystic]

You mean Patman that there actually was a court case where FRAM lost because of a FRAM oil filter failure? I think that was what Ray H was looking for.

 

[biscuitboy]

The motor in my 93 Accord failed prematurely at 100K miles. I had used Fram filters for several years, including one treated with PTFE (Teflon). Do I have rock-solid proof that the filters were the problem? No, but I strongly suspect the filters, particularly the Teflon treated one, were the root cause.

 

[YZF150]

Ray is right, you know. There is no way to separate user error or unmentioned or unforeseen mechanical failure from reported or suggested anecdotes.

If any brand of filter would have been shown to be inherently defective due to design or construction, it would be Fram, simply by virute of the numbers sold. But compelling evidence that is repeatable and independently verifyable just doesn't appear to be there.

I'm neither a Fram apologist nor a user. I agree with all who conclude that their filters do not appear to be as robustly constructed as some others. But I do honor intellectual honesty. Some of the leaps to criticism of Fram from the marginal or circumstantial evidence reported about the filters are too unfounded to warrant rebuttal. In this way, I agree with Ray.

This is not to say, however, that I believe that no Fram filter ever killed an engine. Could be. Maybe even probably has, again based on the numbers. But discrete events or isolated incidents do not a class action make.

And, it is hardly the case that "many a murderer" been convicted when there is no body to be found. At least convicted and upheld in jurisprudence in the court districts of the majority of the members here.

 

[QuadDriver]

Personally witnessed/know of 2:

1) 79? 80? Horizon with 1.7L vw motor, which as you might recall has a LOT of oil pressure at the filter boss - filter exploded. Second replacement filter exploded. Duetsch filter put on, fine.

2) Ford truck, internal filter media failed at about 200 miles on new oil (same oil as always, cept fram instead of motorcraft) parts of the filter media got circulated and lodged in the bearings. Tore that motor right the heck up.

Do NOT use fram. Even if they DONT explode on you, they have the smallest media area on the market and use the same restriction, meaning, more oil in that motor will run in 'bypass' (contrary to popular belief, only about 10-20% of what the filter pumps actually goes thru the filter media at any one time) and what oil does get filtered, is no cleaner than any other filter. The 5psi MINIMUM pressure drop across a Fram is REAL not imagined. You get what you paid for. If fram is the carried filter by walmart its because the price to supply is lower. You get what you paid for. Let me repeat: you get what you paid for. For a few pennies more you can get a fine AC delco or motorcraft.

 

[Mystic]

You do have to take into considerable personal stories. Regardless of the brand of oil filter, if somebody on this web site personally had a problem with a certain brand of oil filter, or personally witnessed the failure of an oil filter, such statements have to be taken into consideration. It does not matter that the witness is not an expert on oil filters. Now, we have to assume the witness is telling the truth, unless proven otherwise. Somebody can lie, of course.

I do not know what the motive would be for somebody to lie about such things, however. Would somebody have such a grudge against FRAM, Purolator, or whoever to tell lies on this forum? I personally had some problems with a couple of FRAM oil filters. But I had no motivation to lie-up until the time I had problems I was a FRAM guy. I used FRAMs all the time.

There are a few people at this web site who apparently would not accept any story about an oil filter failing unless the failure was documented by an oil filter expert on site at the time of occurrance. Not likely, guys.

On the other side of the coin, somebody might make up a story for whatever reason, or may mistake something else for the failure of an oil filter.

Let me give you an example about motor oils. Years ago I heard a lot of negative stuff about a certain brand of motor oil, which also happened to be a very popular brand. Some of the people who warned me against that brand were auto mechanics, who had seen sludged up engines. I think what happened was, because the brand of oil was so popular, the mechanics were bound to see a lot of sludged up engines where people were using that oil. The mechanics asked the people what brand of oil they had been using, and added 2+2 and got 5. The problem was not the oil-the problem was probably poor maintenance. It merely seemed that a lot of sludged up engines were caused by that oil, because the oil was so popular.

The same thing could happen to FRAM oil filters guys. What is the number one brand of oil filter in the USA? FRAM is. One guy on this forum said that he thought that about 70% of the cars he checked out had FRAM oil filters on them. Some number of oil filters are going to fail-but we probalby will not notice the failure of the brand that hardly anybody uses. The failure rate of that little used brand might be ten times what the failure rate of FRAM is, for all we know.

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mystic:
You mean Patman that there actually was a court case where FRAM lost because of a FRAM oil filter failure? I think that was what Ray H was looking for.

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EXACTLY! Now we have at least one documented case in which we can hang our collective hat that the company was found negligent in design and/or workmanship of its product. Whether the company learned a lesson from the episode and award it had to pay out, is another matter and further andecdotal evidence is worth consideration. "Case Law", guys - it does carry weight if anyone suspects a Fram filter tanked an engine and wishes to file suit. (And, no, I'm not a lawyer.)

 

[Whimsey]

Bob, you bring up lots of interesting points about the Fram oil filters in your car, which I believe is an Escort. While Fram oil filters in my Ford inline 4.9L six caused ungodly clacking upon starts and almost 2 exploded Fram filters, the Fram oil filter in my 2.0L 4cyl Zetec engine did not seem to cause any out ward noise or problems. Perhaps certain engines are more prone to the Fram's adbv situation and other "particulars" of the Fram oil filter.

Whimsey