Anti-Wear Additives

[brandon9715]

I was just thinking today, and other than emissions-related reasons, is there any other reason for engine oil companies to move away from ZDDP? From my limited and basic understanding, it sounds like borate esters, organophosphates, sulfur, titanium, tungsten, moly, etc. additives all have more compromises in terms of wear protection than ZDDP. Do I have it wrong?

 

[Brian123]

I was just thinking today, and other than emissions-related reasons, is there any other reason for engine oil companies to move away from ZDDP? From my limited and basic understanding, it sounds like borate esters, organophosphates, sulfur, titanium, tungsten, moly, etc. additives all have more compromises in terms of wear protection than ZDDP. Do I have it wrong?

I think oil companies are finding other anti-wear additives. There are oil's that have quite a bit of ZDDP, and you can run those type of oil's that is your call. On this Forum it is always the finished product that matters the most. I have my feelings or beliefs, but I cannot prove that.

I will give you an example, I was using Mobil 1 ESP 0W-30 and my engine was using some oil, I went to the ESP 5W-30, and it is the new formula, no oil usage, I do have some of the old formula which I will use on my next OCI. Maybe the ESP 0W-30 cleaned some stuff out, who knows.

 

[brandon9715]

I think oil companies are finding other anti-wear additives. There are oil's that have quite a bit of ZDDP, and you can run those type of oil's that is your call. On this Forum it is always the finished product that matters the most. I have my feelings or beliefs, but I cannot prove that.

I will give you an example, I was using Mobil 1 ESP 0W-30 and my engine was using some oil, I went to the ESP 5W-30, and it is the new formula, no oil usage, I do have some of the old formula which I will use on my next OCI. Maybe the ESP 0W-30 cleaned some stuff out, who knows.

Right, the end result is what matters. At the end of the day I don’t care what is used as long as it works, but I’m curious if there is really any upside to ZDDP alternatives.

 

[kschachn]

@MolaKule might have some input here.

 

[MolaKule]

it sounds like borate esters, organophosphates, sulfur, titanium, tungsten, moly, etc. additives all have more compromises in terms of wear protection than ZDDP. Do I have it wrong?

I am unsure by what you meant by, "compromises."

A formulated motor oil is a balanced mix of various base oils and various chemistries. There can be a combination of antiwear and other chemistries in the formulation as long as they are synergistic and do not conflict with one another.

The zddp molecule is multifunctional since it is an antiwear agent first and acts secondarily as an antioxidant.

There are many multifunctional chemistries in a DI additive package.

 

[brandon9715]

I am unsure by what you meant by, "compromises."

A formulated motor oil is a balanced mix of various base oils and various chemistries. There can be a combination of anti-wear and other chemistries in the formulation as long as they are synergistic and do not conflict with one another.

The zddp molecule is multifunctional since it is an antiwear agent first and acts secondarily as an antioxidant.

There are many multifunctional chemistries in a DI additive package.

By compromises I mean whether or not the end result is reduced wear. From my limited searching, it appears most of the other additives need increased support from other additives because they do not decrease wear as much on their own. Again, just curious and I don’t care what is used as long as it works.

 

[Brian123]

Right, the end result is what matters. At the end of the day I don’t care what is used as long as it works, but I’m curious if there is really any upside to ZDDP alternatives.

I see you are on the Anti-Wear thing here, and that is fine, but you need to keep things clean. If the engine internals are not clean, then the anti-wear additives thing is not important. Realize that you need to keep the Piston Rings clean, a member on here once told me, keep your Piston Rings clean and your engine will have a long and happy life.

Find an oil that will keep things clean or clean things up.
Valvoline Restore and Protect is the cat's Meow here at this time for doing some cleaning.

I am not having any oil usage since going to Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30, I am now at 1100 miles on this OCI, I will tell you this, if there is any oil usage, I will be going for the big gun that is behind me on my Bureau:

2 Gallons of Valvoline Premium Blue Restore Gen 1 10W-30!

 

[brandon9715]

I see you are on the Anti-Wear thing here, and that is fine, but you need to keep things clean. If the engine internals are not clean, then the anti-wear additives thing is not important. Realize that you need to keep the Piston Rings clean, a member on here once told me, keep your Piston Rings clean and your engine will have a long and happy life.

Find an oil that will keep things clean or clean things up.
Valvoline Restore and Protect is the cat's Meow here at this time for doing some cleaning.

I am not having any oil usage since going to Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30, I am now at 1100 miles on this OCI, I will tell you this, if there is any oil usage, I will be going for the big gun that is behind me on my Bureau:

2 Gallons of Valvoline Premium Blue Restore Gen 1 10W-30!

Agreed that cleanliness is important.

 

[cheesepuffs2]

I'm not one that can answer your question, but I think that's a valid ask. I would almost rephrase it as, "if emissions systems weren't a factor, would ZDDP still be king of the anti-wear additives?".

I have to think the answer to that is yes, because we see high ZDDP levels have remained in racing and powersports oils that aren't subject to the preservation of catalytic converters. If an alternate was distinctly "better", then wouldn't ZDDP be gradually phased out of everything?

 

[brandon9715]

I'm not one that can answer your question, but I think that's a valid ask. I would almost rephrase it as, "if emissions systems weren't a factor, would ZDDP still be king of the anti-wear additives?".

I have to think the answer to that is yes, because we see high ZDDP levels have remained in racing and powersports oils that aren't subject to the preservation of catalytic converters. If an alternate was distinctly "better", then wouldn't ZDDP be gradually phased out of everything?

This was exactly my thought and what I wanted to verify.

 

[OVERKILL]

I'm not one that can answer your question, but I think that's a valid ask. I would almost rephrase it as, "if emissions systems weren't a factor, would ZDDP still be king of the anti-wear additives?".

I have to think the answer to that is yes, because we see high ZDDP levels have remained in racing and powersports oils that aren't subject to the preservation of catalytic converters. If an alternate was distinctly "better", then wouldn't ZDDP be gradually phased out of everything?

Also, Euro oils, even low SAPS ones, have more ZDDP than your typical neutered API/ILSAC offering.

 

[cheesepuffs2]

Also, Euro oils, even low SAPS ones, have more ZDDP than your typical neutered API/ILSAC offering.

Good point.

 

[50yr Street Mech]

The only additive I use is BG PN 115 in my old engines. Add to synthetic oil during an OC...... Heard pretty good things about BG products. Hasn't done any harm to them, but I also don't know if it's Snake Oil. Any input on BG products would be most helpful. I am not a chemist when it comes to additives, but it has to be better than STP Oil Treatment glue.

 

[brandon9715]

The only additive I use is BG PN 115 in my old engines. Add to synthetic oil during an OC...... Heard pretty good things about BG products. Hasn't done any harm to them, but I also don't know if it's Snake Oil. Any input on BG products would be most helpful. I am not a chemist when it comes to additives, but it has to be better than STP Oil Treatment glue.

Just use a quality oil and don’t use any additives. Oil does not need additional additives, and it’s likely the added products cause more harm than good.

 

[50yr Street Mech]

Good to know. Thank you And you saved me a bunch $$$$$ too !

 

[cheesepuffs2]

Just use a quality oil and don’t use any additives. Oil does not need additional additives

LiquiMoly called, they said "hush".

 

[50yr Street Mech]

LOL

 

[Sienna dude]

I am unsure by what you meant by, "compromises."

A formulated motor oil is a balanced mix of various base oils and various chemistries. There can be a combination of antiwear and other chemistries in the formulation as long as they are synergistic and do not conflict with one another.

The zddp molecule is multifunctional since it is an antiwear agent first and acts secondarily as an antioxidant.

There are many multifunctional chemistries in a DI additive package.

And that's why I disagree with the naysayers that say Pennzoil Ultra Platinum is not as good as it used to be. ZDDP and calcium have gone down but Moly, Boron and Magnesium have gone up. I trust these companies, specially after I got my filter dissected running HPL Premium Plus. 90% of the times my van was on a diet of 50-75% GTL Mobil 1 0w16. And my engine is super clean. So now I have a lot of trust in the giants like Mobil 1 and Pennzoil. They know how to formulate a superb oil. Ingredients don't matter, the final formulation matters.
@OVERKILL Mobil 1 0w16 is badass, its ingredients don't matter. Like you said, nobody should hesistate from using these oils because of GTL and additives and all. The product as a whole is what matters.

 

[Sienna dude]

Folks, stop digging into voa's, product sheets, tbn, amount of Moly and calcium and all. They don't tell you how an oil will perform in your engine. Trust the specialists who formulate the oils

 

[OilUzer]

I trust approvals.