Anti Drainback Failures on OEM honda filters

[Sayjac]

You've lost me. First you say you found your second dry filter, then you say you cut it open and found oil in the outer area which would indicate the adbv IS functioning.

Depending on your filters orientation, the center tube would be left with varying amounts of oil when the filter is removed. And again, a '30 sec warmup' (oxymoron) with 1 min. wait is not enough time to allow the same amount of oil to settle back in the sump.

IMO, the silicone adbv's are functioning in your Honda filters and I wouldn't be concerned. And your Blackstone UOA would also add more data that your filter/adbv is functioning properly.

 

[boiler21]

Oil in the outer casting indicates the antidrainback valve MAY be operating to a certain degree.

Again, for 10 years I had full filters at oil changes. Now nothing comes out.

Before, there would not be any difference in oil level whether or not I started the car recently. Now the level fluctuates a full quart.

 

[Gary Allan]

It shouldn't. The filter, even one typically misnomered as a "one quart" filter, doesn't hold nearly that much.

There could be some other explanation. I'm not intimately acquainted with Honda engines, but some Asian designs have used (what is termed) oil check valves to pool/cache oil in the upper engine (or at least beyond the filter). If that feature were somehow compromised it could result in a normally leaky ADBV producing the effects you state. That oil caching would tend to prevent the filter from draining back too.

Now I don't know if these (alleged) oil check valves are an active (as in device) or passive (as in merely making it impossible to gravity drain back) ..so this is just speculation on plausible explanations for your observations.

Your true "full" may be more than the number of quarts you are putting in. That might be why, when reading full, your filter is empty. The rest of the engine could be too. That is, the engine itself, in conjunction with filter volume, my account for one quart all by themselves.

No nitrile ADBV is going to remain pliable under Honda's OEM recommendation. Those who don't hear start up rattle on any engine beyond (about) 3000 miles just has a filter orientation or engine configuration that doesn't lend itself to the condition.

The thing's only designed to slow the filter emptying. When it's hot and soft it accomplishes this. As it cools, hardens, and distorts ...it leaks like a sieve.

 

[emaax]

one minute
oil doesnt flow all back down that fast
and the dipstick barely touches the oil

thats perfectly ok

 

[boiler21]

sorry guys. I can pour 4.2 quarts into the valve cover during an oil change and almost immediately read it on the dipstick at exactly the proper mark. Maybe the cars you're driving are different than mine. Still, I dont see how you could have a full quart be stranded in the valvetrain after a minute. It's so much slower than the oil pump rate. who knows

Changed to a mobil1 filter and the level is now the same whether or not I let it sit overnight or check it after a minute.

 

[sxg6]

+1 To you aren't giving the oil enough time to drain back down. If you're an engineer, you should be accustomed to doing things by the book, exactly as they should be done. Therefore, try doing exactly what your Honda owners manual says; "Wait a few minutes and recheck the oil level". One minute is not "a few minutes", wait 3-4 and make sure you are on a level surface when doing so. Not trying to come across in a bad way, but this is not a filter issue.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: beast3300
Originally Posted By: boiler21
Forgot to mention that the oil filters are dry when I pull them.

How long do you recommend me to wait after turning off the car to check the dipstick? Never have issues when doing this after an oil change.


The filter will be empty on any brand you pick.


That is incorrect. My Motorcraft filters are FULL of oil when I take them off. And all of my Fleetguards, save one, were as well. The mount is completely horizontal. A properly sealing ADBV will keep the area between the media and the casing full of oil in my experience. I had start-up noise with the one Fleetguard on which the ADBV failed, so there is a very prominent difference with many engines when the ADBV works and when it doesn't. And this presents itself as start-up noise.

 

[Gary Allan]

Let's just say that if you've never experienced start up rattle while using a variety of nitrile ADBV'd filters, then it is more than likely that the ADBV isn't a requirement in preventing it. In my 4.0 I've never had a nitrile valved filter NOT produce some noise until the pressure comes up at a certain point in the OCI. Nitrile valves tend to produce this noise at or around 3000-5000 miles, but it can happen at any time. Even a silicon ADBV can produce this noise.

Now on my 2.5 (same basic design), I've never heard start up rattle EVER. The filter orientation, while still horizontal, is slightly different. Perhaps it's the unexplained "filter bypass" that's shown in the FSM that's a left over from the Chevy days when they ditched the 4.2 in favor of the 2.8 V6.

 

[boiler21]

sxg6, Explain to me how 1 qt (out of 4.2qt) can be left in the head after a minute. Yes, I'm an engineer and in PhD research with lots of fluids. What you guys are proposing doesn't physically make sense unless you're arguing about draining the film of oil that remains in the head. This would amount to maybe a 1/4 qt?? But 1qt difference, no way.

I didn't think I'd get this much attention for stating i waited a minute, but I have waited more than that with no difference in results. I have waited 1 minute to 1 hour and the level is low. If I wait longer than an hour it creeps up almost full.

 

[Hootbro]

Originally Posted By: boiler21
sxg6, Explain to me how 1 qt (out of 4.2qt) can be left in the head after a minute. Yes, I'm an engineer and in PhD research with lots of fluids. What you guys are proposing doesn't physically make sense unless you're arguing about draining the film of oil that remains in the head. This would amount to maybe a 1/4 qt?? But 1qt difference, no way.

I didn't think I'd get this much attention for stating i waited a minute, but I have waited more than that with no difference in results. I have waited 1 minute to 1 hour and the level is low. If I wait longer than an hour it creeps up almost full.



There is numerous small recesses in a head that trap oil and do not fully drain. Having half to 1 qt of oil left over is not that uncommon. That is why there is a oil change qty and dry fill qty listed in a repair manual.

I take it you are not a hands on engineer that follows the design product through to the end customer? I am an engineer also but actually work on the production floor. Your statement is very typical of other engineers I work with that just jockey a CATIA station.

 

[boiler21]

too funny, talk about false presumptions all around.

my problem was solved once I switched filters. Sure, i can buy that the head might trap some. The diff in dry and change capacities in my case is 0.2qt. I observe this on the dipstick during changes so it makes sense. You guys do not make sense, sorry.

 

[Gary Allan]

Instead of comparing shoe sizes ...let's think of plausible explanations for something that didn't occur for some period of time, then occurred routinely with a time component involved.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: boiler21
too funny, talk about false presumptions all around.

my problem was solved once I switched filters. Sure, i can buy that the head might trap some. The diff in dry and change capacities in my case is 0.2qt. I observe this on the dipstick during changes so it makes sense. You guys do not make sense, sorry.


Another factor in the level equation is oil temp. A hot crankcase will show a different level than a cool (ambient) one. Still, bottom line, if your filters are truly dry when removed, then the ADBV has to be a part of that equation. I wouldn't go so far as to say ALL Honda filters have bad ADBVs because the ones I used (run at 4 and 5K intervals back then) definitely were not dry. Would be interesting to dissect those filters and see if the defect could be spotted. Wonder if you bought those filters all at once and if they could be part of a bad batch. Getting a bad one is always a possibility, but several in a row???

Please don't be offended over being challenged.This is BITOG! It's a cocktail made of equal parts brilliance and bloviation. We are very good at picking nits and making what I call "Carnac diagnosis" (if you recall the old Johnny Carson bit). Sometimes we are even right! You can learn a lot here or you can be led down the primrose path to the septic tank. Eventually, you learn enough to know which. Sometimes it takes a little patience to stick with us but in reality, it's one of the friendliest boards I know of. Your argument can be challenged strongly (and sometimes stupidly...) but seldom does it degrade to kid stuff and personal insults. When it does, we have some pretty even-handed moderators. All in all, I think it's my favorite place on the web. Stick with us.. we can use your brain!

 

[boiler21]

Good to hear there is voice of reason here. I don't get offended, it is the internet. Just sucks you have to sift so hard.

Actually, I did dissect one of the filters with my dremel and I didn't see any obvious reasons why the antidrainback flap wouldn't work. In fact, it seemed like it was sealed as there was oil in the outer casing...who knows if it would seal with a foot of oil head pressure on it. I don't know enough of how the oil is routed after the filter to the mains to assume it was being sucked out for some reason. The theory of worn mains allowing oil to leak out above the filter is definitely a possibility and something I will look into. Never thought of that.


The filters were purchased in a bunch (cheaper that way) so maybe there was an issue in production. Thought maybe there was something I was overlooking, but it looks like it was indeed the filters.

 

[ottotheclown]

What would life be like if we had no ac and no dremels to cut open filters????? I cannot imagine ever!!!

 

[boiler21]

yea, ok otto. Read this. I hope it helps you.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/972124/overcoming_internet_forum_addiction.html

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: ThirdeYe
1 minute isn't long enough for the oil to drain back to the sump.
+1 Especially after 30sec. warm up only.


+2 ... especially with cold oil. When I do an oil level check with fully hot oil I wait 10~15 minutes and get very good and repeatable readings. Typically, I see that the hot oil level is a hair higher (~1 mm on dipstick) when compared to a check done on a stone cold level check that was done 12+ hours after engine shutdown.

If you start a cold engine and run it for a minute, and then shut it down to check the oil level, I'd suggest waiting ~20+ minutes to allow all the oil to drain out of the top end.

 

[meep]

1. I appreciate Jim Allen's and Gary Allen's comment to stifle the pi$$ing match. I don't care to read posts saying "my opinion is more qualified because of this sheepskin." Personally, it lowers my opinion of the names involved. I care to read posts where someone can at least explain *why* they reason a certain way. back it up with design principle, real-world experience, logical explanation. I got schooled in "pumping losses" a while back, despite the logic of my own argument. I appreciated the guy taking the time to try to straighten me out.

2. honda oem filters used to be fram. back in...'05-06 (?) the parts tech told me they had a few filter disintegration-->engine failures and switched to a foreign manufacturer.... maybe denso? I don't recall. Looked identical on the outside.

3. vertical vs horizontal-- i think this is silly. there is a column of fluid above the filter, pressing backwards, regardless of orientation. a horizontal filter with faulty ADBV will loose an ounce or 2 more... but either would loose the several oz's that fill galleys, passageways, all the way back through the pump...

4. the top always holds a couple ounces. that never changes, hot, or cold. if it's pooled and it's not going to drain, it's not going to drain.

5. oil drain passages, unless clogged, FLOW. If it takes 60 seconds for a full quart to drain, a pump that pushes 4+qts per minute is going to eventually flood the head, shove oil up the PCV, make a mess, and dry the sump. I'd estimate that 90% of what's going to drain from the top end does so in 20 seconds. Frankly, though, if you've ever run the engine without the cover on (it's messy), there is not quarts upon quarts of flow up there. maybe a quart per minute at idle? if the returns were clogged, badly, it could pool, but then you have real problems... sludge would be very evident under the cap. poster hasn't mentioned sludge, so I'm voting against the "60 seconds to drain the head" theory.

6. I have had startup rattle go away once moving away from Fram filters. new frams were quiet but at 3k miles the noise would start. 10k OCI. switched to purolator, problem went away.

7. i think there is bearing seep, which is fine. the crank, cams, rods, all have journals in them, in addition to block, pump, VVT systems... it can all drip out, right out, regardless of ADBV.



Mike

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
honda oem filters used to be fram. back in...'05-06 (?) the parts tech told me they had a few filter disintegration-->engine failures and switched to a foreign manufacturer.... maybe denso? I don't recall. Looked identical on the outside.
Actually the current Honda A-02 is made by Honeywell/Fram. While the Filtec A-01 can still be obtained online at places like H and A, it's not as common. The Honeywell/Fram A-02 is the most widely available/standard filter at dealers, at least in this area.

The A-02 still has the better silicone adbv and I've used it as dealer installed for a few OCI's with no issues on a 3.0L.

Back to original point, if the filters had disintegrated resulting in engine failure as alleged, it wouldn't seem to make sense, at least to me, that Honda would continue to use Honeywell as an OEM supplier for their current filters.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: meep

5. ... I'd estimate that 90% of what's going to drain from the top end does so in 20 seconds. Frankly, though, if you've ever run the engine without the cover on (it's messy), there is not quarts upon quarts of flow up there. maybe a quart per minute at idle? if the returns were clogged, badly, it could pool, but then you have real problems... sludge would be very evident under the cap. poster hasn't mentioned sludge, so I'm voting against the "60 seconds to drain the head" theory.


10% of 5 qts is 1/2 qt ... which is enough to show a major difference on any dipstick.

I do oil level checks in two ways, and they typically match pretty closely - within ~1 mm on the dipstick with the hot level being slightly higher than the cold level due to oil volume expansion with heat.

If hot oil - shut off engine and wait 15~20 minutes.

If cold oil - check the level the next morning before starting the engine. I like checking the oil level cold because it's a lot easier to see the level on the dipstick.

IF you see the cold level much higher than the the hot level, the it's possible the oil filter and oil passages are draining completely back into the sump.