Another M1 noise story

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Originally Posted By: Capa
Right, Pennzoil is the number one selling conventional oil brand and Mobil by far the number one selling synthetic brand. Most of the acoustic complaints are in regards to synthetics, and usually Mobil.

So, if someone were to mix these to a 50/50 ratio......... Sounds like a great project.
 
I guess for me it was a win win switching back to M1 from gold bottle Edge in my Jeep. I was happy using Edge right up until the SN formulation came out and several of us decided it was not as good as the SM flavor. I switched back to M1 and the engine is very quiet. I tried Amsoil and I had the same noise complaints many of you are having with Mobil 1. I like a quiet engine too, I also believe what Doug Hillary says, and while the engine was noisy it wasn't grinding itself to death since I had a premium oil [Amsoil] in it. At the moment I have no plans on changing brands.

BTW I'm in the same camp as OVERKILL on the value of a UOA report.
 
I've got Gold bottle Edge FST in our KIA right now, it has about 4k on it. It is so quiet I can barely hear it running standing next to it, and KIA/Hyundai's are known for rather noisy engines.

So I am very pleased with it and will be doing a UOA.

Will I put Mobil 1 in it at some point? Most likely I will...and if I think it's noisy will I be worried about protection? Nope. But if it is noisy I won't put it in the KIA again either.
 
To be honest, I wouldn't really bother with M1 5W-30. I've had the stuff in the Caliber, and I didn't quite like it either for the very same problem you mention - clatter on cold starts. Switched to PU 5W-40 and it's as quiet as a church mouse. On another note, had I seen the NOACK before I bought the oil, I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. IMHO, PP 5W-30 is a better product.

The 0W-20 and 0W-30 are quite good, but again, I wouldn't bother with their 5W-30. I'm running 0W-40 in the Envoy and their 10W-60 Extended Performance in my Grand Marquis. Those two, I have been quite content with.
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Care to tell me again about the value of UOA's showing "higher" iron?


Care to show any actual proof higher iron levels aren't an indication of greater wear, even if it isn't excessive and the motor is still in spec?

Iron particles in the oil had to have come from engine internals. Whether or not the amount of iron indicates a problem, more iron in the oil means more wear in the motor.


I showed you proof above, the liner from the Detroit Diesel that Doug posted. Did you note his condemnation points for iron in his UOA's? Did you note the visible cross-hatching still in the bloody liner?

The issue is that a UOA only samples a very narrow range of particle sizes. So if larger particles are generated by a lubricant, they don't show up in a UOA.

There's also the matter of chemical chelation, which will also give false-high readings.

The only way to know what ACTUAL wear is occurring is to perform a tear-down. And since tear-down testing is performed as part of many manufacturer's approval programs, it is safe to say that they have a much firmer grasp of what sort of wear is or isn't going on inside the engines they manufacturer when using an approved lubricant. You aren't gaining that insight by spending $20.00 on a UOA, sorry.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Care to tell me again about the value of UOA's showing "higher" iron?


Care to show any actual proof higher iron levels aren't an indication of greater wear, even if it isn't excessive and the motor is still in spec?

Iron particles in the oil had to have come from engine internals. Whether or not the amount of iron indicates a problem, more iron in the oil means more wear in the motor.


I showed you proof above, the liner from the Detroit Diesel that Doug posted. Did you note his condemnation points for iron in his UOA's? Did you note the visible cross-hatching still in the bloody liner?

The issue is that a UOA only samples a very narrow range of particle sizes. So if larger particles are generated by a lubricant, they don't show up in a UOA.

There's also the matter of chemical chelation, which will also give false-high readings.

The only way to know what ACTUAL wear is occurring is to perform a tear-down. And since tear-down testing is performed as part of many manufacturer's approval programs, it is safe to say that they have a much firmer grasp of what sort of wear is or isn't going on inside the engines they manufacturer when using an approved lubricant. You aren't gaining that insight by spending $20.00 on a UOA, sorry.

Well said.
 
I do feel that certain grades of My are probably better than others,their 0W oils,the HM line,and the 15W50 are Mobil's best of the best IMO,and probably the best oils made.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The only way to know what ACTUAL wear is occurring is to perform a tear-down. . You aren't gaining that insight by spending $20.00 on a UOA, sorry.


Absolutely.

Too many here rely on UOA's as the Absolute Truth and read way too much into trivial numbers.

UOA is just one tool...
 
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Why would M1 make a valvetrain noisey? Additive package or the lack of? Is this an ongoing problem or just recently started with the SN oils?

Anyone??????
 
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Why would M1 make a valvetrain noisey? Additive package or the lack of? Is this an ongoing problem or just recently started with the SN oils?

Anyone??????

If you're talking about hydraulic lifters being noisy, the degree of air entrainment can play a role with some oils.
I personally haven't had that problem with M1 oils but a racing buddy of mine claims to in a Zetec engined car of his once the oil has a certain number of miles on it. He also has had the problem even with RL again after a certain number of miles. In comparison he never had a problem with GC nor interestingly enough with the lighter M1 0W-40/TGMO blend he is running now.

Again personally I have never noticed a difference in engine sound between oils of either brand or grade unless it's from something definitive like a lifter or a loose bearing.
In an engine with no issues I've never been able to detect any difference in engine sounds based on brand or even widely different viscosities such as between a 20W-50 and a 0W-20.

IMHO sound differences between oils is largely psychological; you expect a difference and therefore there is.
I once proved the point to another BMW owner who commented on the condition of my older Bimmer and how quite the engine was.
When I told him I was running M1 0W-20 (which I have run in the winter) he was in disbelief as he found anything lighter than a 15W-40 was "noisy" in his car.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Why would M1 make a valvetrain noisey? Additive package or the lack of? Is this an ongoing problem or just recently started with the SN oils?

Anyone??????

If you're talking about hydraulic lifters being noisy, the degree of air entrainment can play a role with some oils.
I personally haven't had that problem with M1 oils but a racing buddy of mine claims to in a Zetec engined car of his once the oil has a certain number of miles on it. He also has had the problem even with RL again after a certain number of miles. In comparison he never had a problem with GC nor interestingly enough with the lighter M1 0W-40/TGMO blend he is running now.

Again personally I have never noticed a difference in engine sound between oils of either brand or grade unless it's from something definitive like a lifter or a loose bearing.
In an engine with no issues I've never been able to detect any difference in engine sounds based on brand or even widely different viscosities such as between a 20W-50 and a 0W-20.

IMHO sound differences between oils is largely psychological; you expect a difference and therefore there is.
I once proved the point to another BMW owner who commented on the condition of my older Bimmer and how quite the engine was.
When I told him I was running M1 0W-20 (which I have run in the winter) he was in disbelief as he found anything lighter than a 15W-40 was "noisy" in his car.

Have you ever heard of RHOADS lifters? I used to run these in my SBC engines that I built. You would swear I had solid lifters in the engine, because of the way they are designed, and would clatter.
Then, Crane Cams came out with a lifter that offered the same hp gain and design of the RHOADS lifters, just without the clatter. They are called High Intensity Lifters.
Anyway, this clatter the engines are making almost sounds similar to what I described. It just seems like I am seeing more complaints with the SN rated oils.
21.gif
 
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Why would M1 make a valvetrain noisey? Additive package or the lack of? Is this an ongoing problem or just recently started with the SN oils?

Anyone??????

If you're talking about hydraulic lifters being noisy, the degree of air entrainment can play a role with some oils.
I personally haven't had that problem with M1 oils but a racing buddy of mine claims to in a Zetec engined car of his once the oil has a certain number of miles on it. He also has had the problem even with RL again after a certain number of miles. In comparison he never had a problem with GC nor interestingly enough with the lighter M1 0W-40/TGMO blend he is running now.

Again personally I have never noticed a difference in engine sound between oils of either brand or grade unless it's from something definitive like a lifter or a loose bearing.
In an engine with no issues I've never been able to detect any difference in engine sounds based on brand or even widely different viscosities such as between a 20W-50 and a 0W-20.

IMHO sound differences between oils is largely psychological; you expect a difference and therefore there is.
I once proved the point to another BMW owner who commented on the condition of my older Bimmer and how quite the engine was.
When I told him I was running M1 0W-20 (which I have run in the winter) he was in disbelief as he found anything lighter than a 15W-40 was "noisy" in his car.

Have you ever heard of RHOADS lifters? I used to run these in my SBC engines that I built. You would swear I had solid lifters in the engine, because of the way they are designed, and would clatter.
Then, Crane Cams came out with a lifter that offered the same hp gain and design of the RHOADS lifters, just without the clatter. They are called High Intensity Lifters.
Anyway, this clatter the engines are making almost sounds similar to what I described. It just seems like I am seeing more complaints with the SN rated oils.
21.gif


Well there is a scientific way to find out with a DB meter.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The only way to know what ACTUAL wear is occurring is to perform a tear-down. . You aren't gaining that insight by spending $20.00 on a UOA, sorry.


Absolutely.

Too many here rely on UOA's as the Absolute Truth and read way too much into trivial numbers.

UOA is just one tool...


01.gif
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I showed you proof above, the liner from the Detroit Diesel that Doug posted. Did you note his condemnation points for iron in his UOA's? Did you note the visible cross-hatching still in the bloody liner?

The issue is that a UOA only samples a very narrow range of particle sizes. So if larger particles are generated by a lubricant, they don't show up in a UOA.

There's also the matter of chemical chelation, which will also give false-high readings.

The only way to know what ACTUAL wear is occurring is to perform a tear-down. And since tear-down testing is performed as part of many manufacturer's approval programs, it is safe to say that they have a much firmer grasp of what sort of wear is or isn't going on inside the engines they manufacturer when using an approved lubricant. You aren't gaining that insight by spending $20.00 on a UOA, sorry.



Here's my take - if a low quality oil was used before switching to a good cleaner oil like M1 or PU, wear on the first fill will go right out the window. It'll be cleaning up all the garbage left behind, stuck to the varnish on engine components.

That said, the visible cross-hatching speaks volume.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
Could there be a correlation between more noise and higher iron levels?


Yes. Higher iron levels equal more wear in the piston rings and cylinder walls
caused by bad lubrication. Noise is usually an indication of bad lubrication.


Now that's one of the reasons why internet forums have little creditability. No facts, just throwing stuff against the wall and see what sticks.


Of course if it's oil you throw against the wall, it won't stick. But if it's M1, will it make the wall noisey?
 
Originally Posted By: teddyboy
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
Could there be a correlation between more noise and higher iron levels?


Yes. Higher iron levels equal more wear in the piston rings and cylinder walls
caused by bad lubrication. Noise is usually an indication of bad lubrication.


Now that's one of the reasons why internet forums have little creditability. No facts, just throwing stuff against the wall and see what sticks.


Of course if it's oil you throw against the wall, it won't stick. But if it's M1, will it make the wall noisey?

Very interesting analogy!
 
My 2012 Acura Tl with the 3.7l was noisy on m1 so I switched to pp and it has been quiet and smooth. Cold start ups was where it was very noticeable. I won't be using m1 again. It has done this on many of my cars and it is noticeably louder. Figured I would try it again and it proved my feels on other cars of it being louder.
 
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