Another GM Intake Manifold Gasket

[mshu7]

I have a 2000 Grand AM GT 3.4L V6 (same eninge as the Montana in the original post of this thread).

Mine has NEVER leaked. In fact, I've had zero issues with my GM engine.

I love how people just jump on the "Bash GM" bandwagon. I'm a GM fan and I'll be the first one to admit that they've had their share of problems including the gasket problem. However, to say that they have "dropped the ball lately" is way off. In fact, their cars today are night and day versus what they were making just 5 years ago. You Toyota/Honda lovers seem to think Toyota & Honda are untouchable and never have problems. What about all the Honda transmission problems? What about the Honda CR-V's catching on fire? What about the sludging Toyota engines? What about the 2007 Toyota Camry transmissions? Should I go on? My point is that every company has their own problems. No company is PERFECT. Whether you aren't in the know or just don't want to admit it, most of GM's vehicles today are on par, if not better in some categories than the imports.

It's so easy to bash GM but they are trying to right their wrongs. It's no secret they've had their problems. But is it really necessary to bash them so harshly still?

Just for the record, I also drive an '05 Mazda3 so I'm NOT anti-import. I just hate people that seem to think Toyota & Honda are the all-mighty and that they cannot do anything wrong and then also bash GM if they sneeze the wrong way.

 

[lght1]

Hi

Just a question, once an owner notices disappearing coolant and the problem is diagnosed, why pay dealership prices for the repair?

This isnot rocket science.

I did my own 3800 SII LIM and upper in 4hrs and that includes retro ing the L26 UIM for use here.

[ April 28, 2006, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: lght1 ]

 

[tmorris1]

quote:

---

Originally posted by lght1:
Hi

Make sure they use either the new metal framed GM LIM gasket or the new Felpro "Problem Solver" version.

Make two passes torquing these down in proper sequence and used blue threadloc.

These new gaskets may finally do the trick properly installed. Now, I am not so leery about the 60 degree V6s.

---

I just got mine back today from getting repaired. The new gasket looks much thicker than the old one. Hopefully it will hold up. As for paying dealer prices, it wasn't much difference in price at all at my dealer. In fact it might have been cheaper.

 

[Dark Jedi]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mshu7:
I have a 2000 Grand AM GT 3.4L V6 (same eninge as the Montana in the original post of this thread).

Mine has NEVER leaked. In fact, I've had zero issues with my GM engine.

I love how people just jump on the "Bash GM" bandwagon. I'm a GM fan and I'll be the first one to admit that they've had their share of problems including the gasket problem. However, to say that they have "dropped the ball lately" is way off. In fact, their cars today are night and day versus what they were making just 5 years ago. You Toyota/Honda lovers seem to think Toyota & Honda are untouchable and never have problems. What about all the Honda transmission problems? What about the Honda CR-V's catching on fire? What about the sludging Toyota engines? What about the 2007 Toyota Camry transmissions? Should I go on? My point is that every company has their own problems. No company is PERFECT. Whether you aren't in the know or just don't want to admit it, most of GM's vehicles today are on par, if not better in some categories than the imports.

It's so easy to bash GM but they are trying to right their wrongs. It's no secret they've had their problems. But is it really necessary to bash them so harshly still?

Just for the record, I also drive an '05 Mazda3 so I'm NOT anti-import. I just hate people that seem to think Toyota & Honda are the all-mighty and that they cannot do anything wrong and then also bash GM if they sneeze the wrong way.

---

funny no one ever said buy an import in this post. maybe you need to slow down and read everything before throwing that out. I know all vehicles has their problems. I just have a problem with GM not wanting to foot the bill for a defect they caused. if the gasket wasnt to blame. why would they come out with a replacement. there are too many of those V-6 on the road today. you think its fair for someone that dont know a thing about vehicles. to have their engine blow because they didnt know about that gasket leaking. guess GM see this one fix to make some money by charging these poeple to replace sludged out motors. that they caused in the first place. to put a faulty gasket that they know is bad in a vehicle and not let anyone know about it.

this isnt bashing. this is a consern being adressed by people that has their gaskets go on them. I never seen anyone put GM down in here. just seen peopel post their gripes and say they will never buy another one again.

also look at all them V-6 and V-8 that has the piston slap. they came out with a fix for the V-6. but they wont do athing to the V-8 ones. just say thats normal. sorry as a consumer if I see a big fleet of GM trucks that has piston slap. you really think I would buy one. NO I WOULD NOT. and not because its GM. if ford, dodge had the same prob I wouldnt buy one.

so many people dont want to fess up and say GM screwed themselves over the years. they want to say its the union, or greedy corp exctutives. but its GM as a whole that has done them in.

I am happy yours hasnt went yet. but I bet in time it will. but I am NOT wishing it will happen to you. the odds are against you for it not to blow.

 

[jayjr98]

My 2000 Saturn had a leaking intake manifold gasket... dealer wanted "only" $500 to replace it... I wasn't too impressed.

 

[mshu7]

Dark Jedi,

My comments aren't really so much about this thread in particular, but just the attitude of some people when it comes to GM and then also Toyota & Honda. I agree that there's not a big hate party going on here but it's comments like, "I won't buy GM. I'll only buy Toyota & Honda". It's the arrogance that people portray regarding Toyota & Honda. They seem to think that those two companies can do no wrong and that they are absolutely perfect. And when it comes to GM, well, they are the scum of the auto industry. Which, 10 years ago I could except. But these days most of GM's vehicles are at the same level of the imports and in some categories they're better. I'm sorry for going a little overboard, but anytime I see general snyde comments about the whole "Toyota/Honda are perfect, GM is scum" I tend to get annoyed.

Bottom line is that I agree with what you say about GM needs to fix these gaskets and not make the owners empty their wallets to do so. I can't really comment on the piston slap thing b/c I don't know all the details on it. From what I've gathered, it's just an annoyance more than a mechanical problem. Are there any of these piston slap vehicles kicking the bucket or do they keep running like any other vehicle (not being sarcastic; really am curious).

 

[Dark Jedi]

I also hate it when people say buy honda or toyo.

as far as the pistion slap. it can sound like a diesel on start up. its basically the bore isnt perfect and the piston rattles around in the bore. granted I havent heard of an engine failing from this. I am sure if you do a search you will find alot of info. I am sure it isnt good for an engine to have its pistons slapping around in there. has to create wear. people say you might get lucky and get a V-8 and not get piston slap. but its rare from what I heard. my cousin has a 2500HD and the 6.1 (I think) and it dont do that. so either they fixed it in the factory or he was lucky.

 

[Mud]

Anyone has every right to defend GM and as an owner of several GM cars I have every right to bash them as much as I like. We also own Ford, Kawasaki, Audi, Honda, and a Kubota too - they are all fair game.

Reason is NOT because GM makes a crappy product. Reason is because service after the sale is going downhill FAST and accountability for KNOWN defects is non-existent. In our case, GM avoided anything to do with the 3.1 intake even though seepage was visible. I did it myself. So they saved themselves a few hundred bucks but lost a customer for thousands of dollars on the next car. Of course you can say well it's just me, big deal. But now repeat that customer DISCONTENT thousands of times and guess what, market share starts going down. Too bad, so sad for any company that uses its customers as their final quality control.

You can do all the surveys in the world on almost-new cars and they will typically show that the new purchase warm and fuzzies are still in place. Do a survey on 5 or 10 year old cars if you want reality.

 

[lght1]

Hi

I think if i was in the market for anything with the 60 degree engine, I would factor the cost of the LIM gasket repair into the purchase price. This way, the cost of the job is already accounted for.

To be more precise, If I was to purchase a Buick Century, Grand AM or Alero, I would plan on having to do the LIM almost immediately.

Once completed, especially with the new FelPro or GM metal framed gaskets, the engine would be good for 200,000 miles and then some.

As I said before, the 60 degree engines arent rocket science, and these new meatal framed gaskets are seriously important.

 

[Shovel Head Ted]

My 96 GMC 4.3 V6 has a small oil leak from the intake manifold. It does not seem to loose any oil on the dipstick or leave any on the ground, so I left it alone for now. It was pointed out to me by my GM dealer when I took it in for the winshield wiper motor recall.He told me with a straight face that they could fix it for me for$1100.00

 

[beanoil]

quote:

---

Originally posted by lght1:
Hi

Just a question, once an owner notices disappearing coolant and the problem is diagnosed, why pay dealership prices for the repair?

This is not rocket science.

I did my own 3800 SII LIM and upper in 4hrs and that includes retro ing the L26 UIM for use here.

---

No, it isn't rocket science, just nuts and bolts. I took mine in because of a lack of time, and, in the event of a class action suit, such as in Canada, I will have the records of the repair in GM's database. No questions. You can bet if they fail again, I will be on my soapbox demanding it be repaired properly, at no charge. Any organization can make a mistake. The company I work for does a fabulous job of R&D. They test, they put equipment in end users locations for more testing. Then they market, and several revisions to hardware and software are done after launch to correct problems revealed in real world applications. Yep, GM has an issue with these intake gaskets. OTOH, GM has had their gasket supplier redesign 3 times, and is covering the bill in some cases, and assisting in others. I'll give them the benny on this one (in my situation;YMMV), and have it fixed.

 

[Dark Jedi]

I had them fix mine as it was under warranty. if not I would of done it myself. but if it goes again I will get the fel-pro one and be done with it. or trade it in for a HONDA

 

[beanoil]

Follow up:
Got my Montana back yesterday. Total was 275, split 50/50 with GM under their "goodwill" program. Frankly, looking at working under the Montana hood, I wouldn't have wanted to attempt the job anyway, and with the FelPro kit @70.00 on rockauto, the 200 more was worth it to me. The gaskets are noticably thicker, and the new Dexcool is pink in the reserve tank. The receipt shows two revised gaskets, new VC gaskets, and new bolts, so I'm certain the dealer used the correct parts. I am lucky, this dealer has an exceptional service dept. with several long term mechanics on board. The owner is an elderly man, and has had the dealership for more than my whole life, 46 years. He still comes in every day, and has a mindset that there is still a thing called customer service in this world. Anyhoo, in my case GM did assist with the repair cost, and it looks like Mr. Goodwrench did a fine job.

 

[mshu7]

Glad to hear you had your stuff all fixed up!

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

---

As I said before, the 60 degree engines arent rocket science, and these new meatal framed gaskets are seriously important.

---

Then why on earth were they not installed on the engine when manufactured??? I mean, they've only been making this family of engines since the day of the Chevy Citation, 25+ years ago. I can be as guilty as anyone of learning slowly, but this is ridiculous. Maybe it's as simple as GM not counting on the internet going where it has, such that customers would actually find out what they've been up to.

 

[lght1]

Hi

The "X" cars came out in 1980, and I dont remember many UIM leaks on those, but most of those seemed to have the 2.5 as i recall.


If the internet has any effect at all..perhaps news of the aluminum gasket will reach even the "non-tech" owners of these engines.

 

[ekpolk]

lght

The "X" was introduced in the spring of 1979, early, as a 1980 model. In addition to the 2.5L I-4, it had the first application of the 2.8L V-6, the beginning of today's still-going 60 degree V-6 family. Thus, the 60 degree has been a going product, continuously, for 27 years, over a quarter century.

I know that what you say about the importance of the metal edged gasket is totally true. So I want to know why GM did not make the mod in, say, early 1980 at the very latest. Instead, they chose to lie about it to customers for two decades. . .

 

[lght1]

Hi

I have seen those FelPro Problem Solver gsakets for these 60 degree engines.

These are nice gaskets. I could easily imagine these engines lasting a long time if the leak was caught in time and repaired with these.

 

[beanoil]

ekpolk,
I agree, with one exception. I had a couple of those early 6's. A Citation, & a Fiero. No issues, no leaks, no problems. Each ran well, and I was a happy boy, especially with the "poor man's Vette". Then came Dexcool in the 90's. I'm thinking that the combo of gasket design and Dex revealed some flaws that may not have been prominent when using the martian juice. I'm not alone, either...






GM Engine Troubles


Thousands of car owners all across the country have recently been hit with expensive engine repairs.

The cause? No is one is exactly sure.

But many mechanics blame General Motor's new anti-freeze, a coolant that has left many GM owners anything but cool.

Mary Ann Crabtree never expected engine trouble with her 1998 Buick, because it had only 55,000 miles on the odometer.

So she was stunned, during a routine oil change, when her mechanic discovered a blown engine gasket from what he said was coolant as thick as sludge!

"They told us the coolant had gummed up. We had never heard of the problem or anything," Crabtree said.

Mechanic Al Duebber opened her radiator cap to find something he's seeing all too frequently these days.

"This is what we run into," Duebber said.

Inside, what should have been bright orange antifreeze had gummy brown deposits in it.

"You can see this has almost an oily residue on it," Duebber said.

Mary Ann's car needed what's called an intake manifold gasket.

It's the plastic engine seal Al showed me here....that costs hundreds of dollars to replace.

"What happens is they fail right in the journal here. And it'll cause coolant to leak out and eventually into the internal components of the engine," Duebber said.

Several lawsuits now claim these gaskets are being eaten away by bad coolant in thousands of late model GM cars.

Duebber sees GM cars with coolant problems every week.

"We see a lot of that John. We have two of them in our shop today for intake manifold failures. We've had a couple of complete engine overhauls as a result of coolant failure," Duebber said.

The lawsuits claim the problems began shortly after GM began using orange antifreeze, called DexCool, in 1996.

Within two years, some Chevy, Olds and Buick owners began complaining of failed heaters, overheating and coolant leaks.

Somehow, whether from air or engine design or driving habits, the coolant can go bad.

So why didn't owners like Mary Ann just change their coolant before these problems happened?

Simple: GM put this label on most DexCool radiators: saying it's good for more than 100,000 miles!

"In the beginning, they said the Dexcool was going to last 100,000 miles or 5 years. We're finding that's not true," said consultant Peg Jesse.

Jesse, who serves as Don't Waste Your Money's auto consultant, manages an auto repair shop 30 miles from Duebber.

But she too has seen many cars with bad coolant and now checks every car with Dexcool for problems.

"We look at the overflow bottle to see if there's any scum built up in the overflow bottle, it is it definitely needs to be flushed and changed," said Peg Jesse, Ray & Ron's Auto Repair.

To be safe, Peg recommends GM owners change their antifreeze every three years or 50,000 miles.

GM has issued an official statement about the Dexcool complaints.

The automaker said "40 million vehicles now use Dexcool, most with no problems."

As for that label saying 150,000 mile coolant? GM now says "Dexcool may not last 150,000 miles in certain parts of the country due to environment and terrain."

Neither the automaker nor Dexcool's maker, Chevron-Texaco, assumes blame.

But now, at least two law firms have recently filed class action lawsuits asking GM to compensate owners with Dexcool problems.

Mary Ann Crabtree just wishes her owners manual had told her to change the coolant more often.

"As far as the handbook told us, no problem should have come about for many more miles!" Crabtree said.

The good news: many GM owners have driven 75,000 or more without problems.

But since no one knows what causes this orange antifreeze to go bad, mechanics suggest you have your coolant checked during every oil change.

 

[ekpolk]

Beanoil:

I've wondered what role, if any, the Dexcool plays in this sad leaky gasket story. I wasn't exactly tracking the 60 degree family from its inception, but I don't recall such stories from its early life. On the other hand, it also seems hard to believe that Dex is such poison that it alone is responsible for the debacle. A carefully developed cooling product that unexpectedly starts eating through the gaskets in the very engines for which it was designed? Were this the case, you'd think the program would be "replace gaskets, AND install some other coolant". I wonder if there was a gasket design change along the way (whether or not it corresponded with the change to Dex)?