Another dealership trick on front end alignment

[D60]

I don't let them touch the alignment unless there is a reason to, like irregular tire wear, darting to one side then the other, replacing tie rods, etc. My experience is 50/50 whether they improve alignment or screw something up. Sad to say, but I have the stories.

Honestly, I personally have this policy on PCM updates. If you're happy with how it runs, don't let them update anything.

It's nearly impossible to avoid it, though, unless you avoid the dealer. If they plug in a dealer-level scan tool, odds are they'll flash any updates as SOP.

Exceptions might be updates that truly have a good chance of increasing engine or transmission life. ~15 years ago this would sound absurd but now manufacturers have convinced themselves they can fix faulty hard parts with software updates.

 

[D60]

To do it right you're supposed to straighten the wheels in the parking lot then take a straight shot at the alignment rack, put it in neutral, and stop with the e-brake only so you don't preload the bushings in the front end. It's absolutely not repeatable, particularly as the miles add play in bushings and other parts. Plus you've got additional error in how the guy mounts the heads to the wheel rims.

Imagine TTB/TIB!! ANY braking causes the front end to settle and camber changes with even the gravitational pull of the moon.

I always figured aligning TTB was mostly an exercise in futility, kinda like herding cats.

 

[t1snwrbrdr12]

My son just bought a 2023 Honda Accord Hybrid from a local dealer that seems pretty good. He has had it a month. He had the CVT fluid changed and they did an alignment check and all was good. Winter weather recently hit here so he decided on new tires. They are 19 inch so they are $$$. Tires Plus had a sale so he got them installed and when done they told him his alignment was way off. Showed him the sheet and some were almost 20 degrees off. He declined and said if they were that bad it would drive horrible. He had an appt at the dealer later that afternoon for a software recall. He showed them the alignment sheet from Tires Plus so they said they would check it since it was under warranty. They said it was dead nuts on. Tires Plus was either lying or completely incompetent and neither one is good.

If you don’t understand an alignment print out and specs it’s easy to make it look off. Just barely turn the steering one way or the other and toe is out significantly on both sides. The lack of being compensated properly or on slip plates could be another easy way to show that your car is out of spec. If any car is checked without being on a properly set up machine and properly compensated targets, on slip plates, suspension and steering unbound, etc, any car will show that it’s out. The threshold for alignment being “in” or showing green on a screen is pretty small.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Of course an before and after alignment sheet is usually provided. Are those faked too?

The conspiracies theories on this board are out of whack..........

Just another day on here.

I paid my FORD shop for a 4-wheel alignment and OC on my Ford Ecosport showing tire wear and poor steering, Hour and a half later they gave me the car back "all set Mr. S". I looked at the "after" measurements and DS rear toe was still way out at the edge of acceptable. They said they "don't touch it if it's not in the red". They Touched the front and it was not in the red - or yellow! So I paid $149 and the tech would not take another 3 mins to get rear toe in the sweet spot. Now that is a rip off. I left disappointed never to return, no fight left in me.
Not a fan of Hunter machines BTW esp the new Hawkeye, But it's just one tool in the process. Found a tire shop up the road that will allow me in there with the tech to do the job together - and I still have issue after a large caster change on my old truck to settle in and roll out the suspension and re-sweep for caster. Ther appears to be a shop time window issue of 1/2 hour or bust. If they are not going do a thorough job, don't even bother and If you are not right there you'll never know. - Arco

 

[loneryder]

Went to the Toyota dealership out of town where we purchased the new Toyota Rav 4 hybrid AWD which now has 22,000 miles accumulated. We had a couple recalls done, oil and filter changed (the last free one) and the tires rotated. Early in the game the tech comes out and says you need a new alighnment for the tune of $125.00. I told him and my wife it didn't need it and saved the money. The vehicle drives perfectly and if I see unusual tire wear I will get it aligned with the next set of new tires. I highly doubt it needed it and the stealership was just trying to get my wife to fork out some unnecessary money. Had I not been there with my wife I am sure she would have been sucked in.

Mercedes dealers push FE alignment on every car that comes in for service. I got the dealer records on a used MB I bought that was serviced at the dealer. That car has had so many alignments it's ridiculous. The owner did 7k miles a year.

 

[CKN]

I paid my FORD shop for a 4-wheel alignment and OC on my Ford Ecosport showing tire wear and poor steering, Hour and a half later they gave me the car back "all set Mr. S". I looked at the "after" measurements and DS rear toe was still way out at the edge of acceptable. They said they "don't touch it if it's not in the red". They Touched the front and it was not in the red - or yellow! So I paid $149 and the tech would not take another 3 mins to get rear toe in the sweet spot. Now that is a rip off. I left disappointed never to return, no fight left in me.
Not a fan of Hunter machines BTW esp the new Hawkeye, But it's just one tool in the process. Found a tire shop up the road that will allow me in there with the tech to do the job together - and I still have issue after a large caster change on my old truck to settle in and roll out the suspension and re-sweep for caster. Ther appears to be a shop time window issue of 1/2 hour or bust. If they are not going do a thorough job, don't even bother and If you are not right there you'll never know. - Arco

My Ford Dealer is $250.00/hour for labor. In some things you are changed a flat rate-other times an hour of labor.
Glad you found a garage where you can micro manage a Tech.

 

[tmorris1]

If you don’t understand an alignment print out and specs it’s easy to make it look off. Just barely turn the steering one way or the other and toe is out significantly on both sides. The lack of being compensated properly or on slip plates could be another easy way to show that your car is out of spec. If any car is checked without being on a properly set up machine and properly compensated targets, on slip plates, suspension and steering unbound, etc, any car will show that it’s out. The threshold for alignment being “in” or showing green on a screen is pretty small.

With as far off as they showed they either didn't know how to run the alignment rack or were straight up lying. This wasn't not knowing how to read the sheet.

 

[MrkofXcellence]

I dont know enough about the process of target mounting on the wheels. The dealer I go to puts every vehicle through alignment check. I had had an alignment done after tie-rod end replacement at indie shop. I went to dealer for unrelated recall and they had 19 year olds putting the targets on the wheels of every car coming through. Print-out said I was off and needed an alignment. I noticed no pulling or any other irregularities. I declined and suffered no ill effects for the next 70k miles.
Dealerships are in a tight spot right now because an ever increasing percentage of their work is warranty only, which doesn’t pay as well. Consumers arent bringing their cars in for profitable repairs due to aging fleet (more likely to go to independent) and high parts prices. Expect the hard sell. Think how many mouths that labor rate at the dealership is having to feed. Service writers, porters, washers, loaner fleet, OEM required upgrades to facility, and the tech (who isn’t doing an easy job). Add to that the mandatory OEM part$ usage and its hard for them to compete.

 

[CleanSump]

This is why I use a local shop that is owned by an acquaintance. He specializes in alignment and suspension repair. They have a very good rep and don't pull any nonsense because everyone in the area knows the owner going back to high school.

 

[Hall]

They said they "don't touch it if it's not in the red".

That's pathetic. They should at least try and get everything close to the middle of the range.

 

[Hohn]

I will give them the benefit of the doubt there, but what I question as an ex engineer is if you can actually get repeatable alignment values down to the 0.1 degree considering that part of the system is mounted in rubber and there are some clearances in the parts, especially after 10's of thousands of miles. Educate me.

They can’t. That’s why this is a scam. You can move the alignment into and out of spec with a 2# rubber mallet.

The alignment racks are more capable of measuring than the alignment adjusters can resolve routinely.

It’s like measuring a young person’s height for the roller coaster with a huge micrometer, and depending on time of day they are either tall enough or too short.

 

[malibuguy79]

The alternate take on this is they siphon the fluid from your brake fluid reservoir, replace with new and call it a flush for $125.00.

I used to work at a Precision Tune Auto care 20years ago and the owner (of that franchise) son would do that and not feel bad about it at all, smh.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

My Ford Dealer is $250.00/hour for labor. In some things you are changed a flat rate-other times an hour of labor.
Glad you found a garage where you can micro manage a Tech.

Yeah I didn't want to have to do that, but lack of results can be frustrating, I usually slip the tech an Andrew Jackson for lunch to at least cover some of the aggravation, lol.

 

[dishdude]

I used to work at a Precision Tune Auto care 20years ago and the owner (of that franchise) son would do that and not feel bad about it at all, smh.

That's wild. If you have the vehicle racked and all four wheels off anyway, how much more time does it really take to crack the bleeders open and run fresh fluid through the lines? 10 mins at the most?

 

[malibuguy79]

That's wild. If you have the vehicle racked and all four wheels off anyway, how much more time does it really take to crack the bleeders open and run fresh fluid through the lines? 10 mins at the most?

Well that is definitely situational dependant. When I do it (on my drive on lift) takes the better part of an hour to flush thru then re-bleed the system. Thats if all the bleeders behave.

I had to do this for both rear bleeders on a Miata recently. Brake fluid looked like Pepsi.

 

[zzyzzx]

This is why I use a local shop that is owned by an acquaintance. He specializes in alignment and suspension repair. They have a very good rep and don't pull any nonsense because everyone in the area knows the owner going back to high school.

Have you considered asked this acquaintance on his commentary no various aftermarket struts brands?

 

[CleanSump]

Have you considered asked this acquaintance on his commentary no various aftermarket struts brands?

Not sure what you are getting at. He will discuss brands and options.

 

[zzyzzx]

Not sure what you are getting at. He will discuss brands and options.

Because so many aftermarket struts now are junk or rebranded junk.

 

[Turbo Actual]

So we perform free performance evaluations at our shop during oil services, diagnostics, etc. We implemented an alignment line in our evaluation program now, where before we’d solely recommend them only if we felt alignment was off. Now we recommend them annually. Honestly I’d rather not touch a car if it was driving straight to begin with and had good tread wear. Last thing we want is a customer coming back because we tweaked the alignment. We do use Hunter alignment machines, so our alignments are pretty spot on majority of the time.

 

[Donald]

I ask for brake pad measurements with every tire rotation. So I keep an eye on things.