Another article showing concern in the housing market- yet the author may have lacked critical thinking

[SC Maintenance]

So you understand that your daughters despite their hard work may not be able to afford a house without your help, yet you would object to $200k town homes. So basically you're one of those guys that once they make it, they want to pull the ladder behind them.

Also, despite all the chest thumping about hard work, boomers had everything handed to them on a silver platter. The greatest generation did the heavy lifting during WW2, US was pretty much the only western country with an intact economy and industrial base, so all that was left for the boomers to do was show up for work.

So let’s start with I am not a boomer, I’m actually towards the younger side of Gen X. And I was the one standing at the bottom of that ladder in 2008.

Second, I said I didn’t want 200K houses in my neighborhood. There’s plenty of room closer to the city here, to build all the 200K townhomes they want. But you know what, they don’t want them there, they want them where I am, where we’ve already paid for all of the nice amenities. So they don’t want a 200K house to live in in a working class neighborhood. They want a 200K house in the 600K. neighborhood with the 600 K amenities, they just don’t care to work for themselves. And yes, I actually lived in much much worse than that, with my kids, after I got the crap kicked out of me in 2008. Cheap cock roach infested apartments. I don’t wish that on anyone but there is a happy middle they won’t accept.

Anyway, they can have their Socialism. I just won’t participate.

 

[KrisZ]

So let’s start with I am not a boomer, I’m actually towards the younger side of Gen X. And I was the one standing at the bottom of that ladder in 2008.

Second, I said I didn’t want 200K houses in my neighborhood. There’s plenty of room closer to the city here, to build all the 200K townhomes they want. But you know what, they don’t want them there, they want them where I am, where we’ve already paid for all of the nice amenities. So they don’t want a 200K house to live in in a working class neighborhood. They want a 200K house in the 600K. neighborhood with the 600 K amenities, they just don’t care to work for themselves. And yes, I actually lived in much much worse than that, with my kids, after I got the crap kicked out of me in 2008. Cheap cock roach infested apartments. I don’t wish that on anyone but there is a happy middle they won’t accept.

Anyway, they can have their Socialism. I just won’t participate.

I presume your community is an HOA? If so I hardly doubt the $200k town homes will have access to you amenities. Something similar is happening where I currently live and nobody is mooching off of our amenities here. But I'm glad some more affordable housing is being built. It doesn't bother me at all.

Your idea of the younger generation is quite skewed I think. Your generation was not all hard working, nor was the generation prior. Same as with current generations. But to have absolutely no empathy as to where things are going is quite short sighted, especially since you have two daughters just about to enter the work force and the housing market.
There is a deliberate attempt to make housing unaffordable to an average person and your stance only helps in this attempt.

 

[KrisZ]

A few questions from a millennial, in no particular order:

-Are people willing to move to areas where housing is cheaper if that's what it takes for entry into the market?
-Do they actually create and stick to a monthly budget?
-Are they adjusting their standards of living and expectations (even temporarily) to allow for fulfilling a savings plan?

My guess is in most cases, the answer to all of these questions is "no."

Well, according to google my wife and I are millennials, we did all of the above.

 

[zzyzzx]

 

[SC Maintenance]

I presume your community is an HOA? If so I hardly doubt the $200k town homes will have access to you amenities.

No, its the opposite. I live in a large master planned community that was always supposed to be only upscale single family. It was approved by county planning which has a full county plan. The planning board changed, they revoked the plan when the developer was maybe 2/3 done. It ended up in a nasty fight between the developer and the county. The County sent some sort of legal demand to the developer that our private amenities be opened to the public. They didn't want more legal trouble so they complied, the HOA actually had to appeal to a judge to overturn it on behalf of the HOA - even though our HOA is not party to the dispute. It took 18 months. The amenities are closed again.

Without getting into all the details, the builder agreed to sell off about 1/5 of the development to be rezoned high density condo's (owned) and high density apartments. The apartment piece is supposed to not be part of the HOA - but since it adjoins the HOA they simply come use what they want as they will. Yes, its trespassing, but who will enforce? The owned part will join the HOA but they haven't started building yet.

So maybe I am just jaded due to my situation. There is a lot more crap that I haven't outlined.

As I mentioned, I am leaving. And houses certainly are not selling in here like they used to.

 

[fdcg27]

I don't know.
Housing in real constant dollar terms has gotten far more costly.
Gone are the days when thousand or so square foot starter homes were built in what are now the inner ring suburbs of our great cities.
You know, the kinds of homes that an average wage earner could afford to buy as new construction.
Today, almost all of the available acreage in near proximity to the larger cities has been built out and those seeking less expensive housing are stuck with either long commutes or living in sketchy neighborhoods in the old inner ring.
Desirable areas actually see many teardowns, where someone buys a house just for the lot.
Maybe we need better metro level urban planning?
Maybe we need a comprehensive plan to turn renters into buyers?
The current situation is both unfair and unsustainable.

 

[KrisZ]

No, its the opposite. I live in a large master planned community that was always supposed to be only upscale single family. It was approved by county planning which has a full county plan. The planning board changed, they revoked the plan when the developer was maybe 2/3 done. It ended up in a nasty fight between the developer and the county. The County sent some sort of legal demand to the developer that our private amenities be opened to the public. They didn't want more legal trouble so they complied, the HOA actually had to appeal to a judge to overturn it on behalf of the HOA - even though our HOA is not party to the dispute. It took 18 months. The amenities are closed again.

Without getting into all the details, the builder agreed to sell off about 1/5 of the development to be rezoned high density condo's (owned) and high density apartments. The apartment piece is supposed to not be part of the HOA - but since it adjoins the HOA they simply come use what they want as they will. Yes, its trespassing, but who will enforce? The owned part will join the HOA but they haven't started building yet.

So maybe I am just jaded due to my situation. There is a lot more crap that I haven't outlined.

As I mentioned, I am leaving. And houses certainly are not selling in here like they used to.

Your situation is quite odd for sure and I would be against it as well.
However it is likely an exception and not the norm.
Or maybe your city is simply playing games, pretending they want to build affordable housing, but they want to do in in an affluent neighborhood knowing people will push back.
Then they can say “we wanted to build affordable housing, but people don’t want it”.

 

[PimTac]

Your situation is quite odd for sure and I would be against it as well.
However it is likely an exception and not the norm.
Or maybe your city is simply playing games, pretending they want to build affordable housing, but they want to do in in an affluent neighborhood knowing people will push back.
Then they can say “we wanted to build affordable housing, but people don’t want it”.

It is not as odd as you think. The mixed use zoning has been pushed to achieve density but it’s being used in many areas. The demand for apartments adds to that.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Your situation is quite odd for sure and I would be against it as well.
However it is likely an exception and not the norm.
Or maybe your city is simply playing games, pretending they want to build affordable housing, but they want to do in in an affluent neighborhood knowing people will push back.
Then they can say “we wanted to build affordable housing, but people don’t want it”.

Absolutely, but its not the only instance in this area. They have rezoned a whole bunch of places nearby to high density. There constructing a lot of apartments, but not many takers on building for sale high density yet. The new planning board changed the entire county development plan. They don't want to be a bedroom community. They want to be a city. Progress I guess.

 

[KrisZ]

It is not as odd as you think. The mixed use zoning has been pushed to achieve density but it’s being used in many areas. The demand for apartments adds to that.

It’s different when a mixed zone is setup right from the beginning and quite different when it is re-zoned after the fact like in @SC Maintenance case.

To me that spells corruption and bribe money.

 

[PimTac]

It’s different when a mixed zone is setup right from the beginning and quite different when it is re-zoned after the fact like in @SC Maintenance case.

To me that spells corruption and bribe money.

It is a mandate from higher up. Most residential zoning in my area has been changed to mixed use multi family. This affects everyone whether you live in a blue collar neighborhood or an upscale neighborhood.

A few miles from me was a golf course community where someone I know bought a house years ago. The golf course was a losing proposition so the owner decided to sell. The homeowners who were there were upset as they could see that the golf course would be replaced by houses. They were assured that some green space would be kept. So over several years houses were built in phases. Then there was a pause and afterwards the developer started building three story apartment buildings. The zoning had changed and the requirements dictated that further building required multi family dwellings. I am guessing that about 200 units went in with about 15-20 buildings. It has changed this community and not for the better.

 

[alarmguy]

Reading through this thread, it’s the same old story. No one can afford a house, but everyone lives in one and can buy one when they are ready.
Nothing has changed in the last seventy years. Those who want a house buckle down, save and buy one.
The only thing that has changed is social media, and people willing to listen to others whining about the mean cruel world at a time when life is never been more easy.

Good god, homes were never “affordable” to the masses and there was a time when people knew they had to make sacrifices in their lifestyle in order to buy one.

This is the big void and the big difference with today’s youth they are unwilling to sacrifice.
Definitely not all youth, they own homes, I don’t wanna paint a broad brush only the ones that are complaining on social media and their mass media spokespeople.

 

[PimTac]

Reading through this thread, it’s the same old story. No one can afford a house, but everyone lives in one and can buy one when they are ready.
Nothing has changed in the last seventy years. Those who want a house buckle down, save and buy one.
The only thing that has changed is social media, and people willing to listen to others whining about the mean cruel world at a time when life is never been more easy.

Good god, homes were never “affordable” to the masses and there was a time when people knew they had to make sacrifices in their lifestyle in order to buy one.

This is the big void and the big difference with today’s youth they are unwilling to sacrifice.
Definitely not all youth, they own homes, I don’t wanna paint a broad brush only the ones that are complaining on social media and their mass media spokespeople.

Something has changed. The average salary compared to the average price of a home in your region.

Case in point. We moved to a nice two story house in a respectable neighborhood in 1973. The house was bought for $19,000 something. My dad was making about $10 an hour as a truck driver. This was not a fixer upper either.

Now with houses running around $400,000 how much would one have to earn to equal that same equation? I came up with $210 an hour using old math.

 

[Rmay635703]

What to do with this house? Rent at negative cash flow or sell for a big loss?

Zero equity take everything out as cash, sell all vehicles, make sure all your accounts are empty.

Get a rental and walk from the loan, sometimes the math isn’t there unless you can convince the bank to short sell.

I like it but we need one more: median monthly mortgage interest/ real median monthly household income. I haven’t read all 33 pages of posts so forgive me if it’s out there.

the most numerous income bracket is more important.

The average income can be doubled in an area if one or two of the wrong people claim a residence there.

Income disparity is so large the distribution is all that matters. Average is all but meaningless when your distribution is a flattened on one end reverse bell curve

Work more than 40 hours a week - like I have the majority of my life. If where you work doesn't offer overtime, find a 2nd job. An extra 20 hours a week even at fast food here pays $14 an hour - thats an extra almost $15K gross per year. There is a labor shortage. Add a side hustle and your at $20K. Thats half your payment almost. Yes, there is taxes, and such - but the short answer is no one wants to do that.

I used to work 80 hours a week to make a small fraction of what I do now. I enjoyed what I did and managed not to ruin my body but others aren’t so lucky.

What you are suggesting is to ruin your body.

My grandfather’s brothers did what you recommend and died at 30, one killed on the job (mining) the other had a heart attack while moving 100lb bale.

My grandfather died at 62 survived on what the doctor called half a heart from complications in his 20s in the navy, he had constant crippling pain and worked through it as a janitor until 62 and died of a heart attack, because he didn’t make it to 65 they grabbed a lot of his pension back.

My father was completely crippled on the job after a series of injuries from morons that didn’t care about safety and lived most of his life in debilitating pain and immobility.

I think the next generation wants to actually see their family and children even if it costs them a $600,000 run down tool shed house.

No point in doing the work if you never get to enjoy the cash or possessions from doing it.

Also Hard work is fine as long as it doesn’t ruin your life and given the disability rates many lost on that deal .

I do believe we need more farmers and industrial work but sadly bad decisions made back in the 70’s and 80’s mean we will never have industry to the extent we once did.

I have seen many in the previous generations make the decision to earn less so they have more time, all decisions come with consequences

 

[Rmay635703]

delete

 

[KrisZ]

Reading through this thread, it’s the same old story. No one can afford a house, but everyone lives in one and can buy one when they are ready.
Nothing has changed in the last seventy years. Those who want a house buckle down, save and buy one.
The only thing that has changed is social media, and people willing to listen to others whining about the mean cruel world at a time when life is never been more easy.

Good god, homes were never “affordable” to the masses and there was a time when people knew they had to make sacrifices in their lifestyle in order to buy one.

This is the big void and the big difference with today’s youth they are unwilling to sacrifice.
Definitely not all youth, they own homes, I don’t wanna paint a broad brush only the ones that are complaining on social media and their mass media spokespeople.

Same old story, probably. There are always people that aren't happy and like to complain.

But facts are facts, home prices to household income ratio is at all times high. You cannot argue this as just social media noise. This makes it very hard for the first time home buyers to get in.

Home byuing from roughly the 60s to 2000s was on easy mode, despite all the chest thumping of sacrifices and hard work.

 

[CKN]

Do all you "Mature Guys" see the above information?????

 

[SC Maintenance]

Same old story, probably. There are always people that aren't happy and like to complain.

But facts are facts, home prices to household income ratio is at all times high. You cannot argue this as just social media noise. This makes it very hard for the first time home buyers to get in.

Home byuing from roughly the 60s to 2000s was on easy mode, despite all the chest thumping of sacrifices and hard work.

View attachment 176250

I don't disagree with this, but without the 30 year mortgage rate, its not really complete. 30 year mortgages over that same time period have ranged from 3% to 20%.

For example in 1980 the ratio was about 4 - but interest rates were about 15%. Now the ratio is nearing 8, but the interest rates are half. Since most buy house one on leverage, right now is no different than 1980 for example.

In 2010 houses were cheap as was interest. But lots of young people lacked jobs. So those people got shafted also.

You can find just about any statistic to support any point of view. You need to look in aggregate.

 

[KrisZ]

It seems the mortgage rates were not as high as everybody remembers them.

https://www.rocketmortgage.com/learn/historical-mortgage-rates-30-year-fixed

 

[PimTac]

It seems the mortgage rates were not as high as everybody remembers them.


View attachment 176285
https://www.rocketmortgage.com/learn/historical-mortgage-rates-30-year-fixed

In 1985 my rate was 12.25%.