Amsoil Synthetic Blend Engine Oils

[buster]

I'd say give them a few years and they'll become mainstream like the rest of the majors.

That would be a shame.

 

[Rat407]

Listen - I can't exactly understand it, justify it or support the decision - and I doubt I will sell much. But still I will stand behind the oil as necessary. Some of this new stuff just rolls out all at the same time, no previous warning for DJ's or Dealers.

I don't understand either what market Amsoil is directly shooting for - maybe otherwise filling out the full line up or showing that they cover the full range of base oils. The 5W-30 is the least interesting, but the XW-20's are, so maybe focus on those rather than poking fun at Amsoil or its customers.

This is for the installer market. They explain it in the Dealer Magazine. Not intended for PC/Cat customers. It's to open more opportunity for dealers at quick lubes and such.

 

[userfriendly]

Dunno about that, I've met female coworkers that think their Honda's and Toyota's don't ever need an oil change because they're dead reliable. Fun fact one of them ended up trading it in 2 years later over engine problems.

That’s why manufacturers offer free oil changes or maintenance packages rolled into the car payment.

 

[Foxtrot08]

I think the supply chain for Group III, GTL and PAO might be disturbed. I'm not in the business to know, but making a guess wouldn't hurt at this point. A lot of manufacturers have reformulated their products to keep their heads above the water.

It’s not.


I’ll spill the beans after letting this thread go on long enough.


There is currently a glut of base oils on the market. And I mean there is so much base oil on the market, at ~$70-80 bbl, we are seeing price decreases. Not increases. Which is absolutely absurd as 90 days ago they were trying to push increases in prices. Which, one never happened. And two, now they’re either giving volume incentive rebates. Or they’re just going down on price.


I mean this from the ILMA’s and Majors.


I just had a meeting with an unnamed foreign oil company (think… japan) that does not have a synthetic blend line up right now on their aftermarket side.


… and they’re launching one. Which, I advised them was a bad idea. And I also would advise Amsoil, it’s a terrible market to get into. It’s completely volume and price driven, which they simply can’t get cheap enough.


I have pricing from 3 of the US *majors* right now that are trying to compete with ILMA’s. And ILMA’s just once again dropped the price. Chevron currently has more base oil than they know what to do with. And I say that very seriously. So it’s going anywhere and everywhere they can find a home for it.


So a lot of players are like “well let’s get aggressive in the syn blend market” - bad idea. Also not sustainable. Yes, it’s still the largest volume seller. But the price you need to get down to for that volume? Anyone with any bit of overhead, can’t do it. They can’t compete with the Pinnacles, RFTs, ALS, KPP, Allegheny’s, Amalie’s of the world. They just can’t.


And those ILMA’s can’t compete against the bathtub blenders right now either.

 

[Yolo]

People will change their tune when this blend from Amsoil starts throwing out UOAs like GC and Magnatec did.

 

[userfriendly]

It’s not.


I’ll spill the beans after letting this thread go on long enough.


There is currently a glut of base oils on the market. And I mean there is so much base oil on the market, at ~$70-80 bbl, we are seeing price decreases. Not increases. Which is absolutely absurd as 90 days ago they were trying to push increases in prices. Which, one never happened. And two, now they’re either giving volume incentive rebates. Or they’re just going down on price.


I mean this from the ILMA’s and Majors.


I just had a meeting with an unnamed foreign oil company (think… japan) that does not have a synthetic blend line up right now on their aftermarket side.


… and they’re launching one. Which, I advised them was a bad idea. And I also would advise Amsoil, it’s a terrible market to get into. It’s completely volume and price driven, which they simply can’t get cheap enough.


I have pricing from 3 of the US *majors* right now that are trying to compete with ILMA’s. And ILMA’s just once again dropped the price. Chevron currently has more base oil than they know what to do with. And I say that very seriously. So it’s going anywhere and everywhere they can find a home for it.


So a lot of players are like “well let’s get aggressive in the syn blend market” - bad idea. Also not sustainable. Yes, it’s still the largest volume seller. But the price you need to get down to for that volume? Anyone with any bit of overhead, can’t do it. They can’t compete with the Pinnacles, RFTs, ALS, KPP, Allegheny’s, Amalie’s of the world. They just can’t.


And those ILMA’s can’t compete against the bathtub blenders right now either.

Perhaps off topic, but how is the supply side of group one base oils?
Personally I like hd mono grades, yes they require seasonal changes, but in the last few years priced well above 15w40.

 

[Foxtrot08]

Perhaps off topic, but how is the supply side of group one base oils?
Personally I like hd mono grades, yes they require seasonal changes, but in the last few years priced well above 15w40.

Slowly decreasing. But still there. Most mono grades are group 2s right now just because it’s easier.

Mono grades don’t have the pricing support because of the economy of scale. For every 1 gallon of a mono grade engine oil made, there’s probably 1000 gallons of 15w40 made. So you have a slower moving SKU, more warehouse time, just added cost supporting it.


On the wholesale side, mono grades are about 50 cents a gallon more expensive than a conventional 15w40. Basically the same price as a syn blend 15w40.

 

[Foxtrot08]

Just food for thought.


I can buy a gallon of syn blend 5w30/5w20/10w30 for less than the cost of a gallon of premium gasoline. About the same price as mid grade in OH right now.

I can buy hydraulic oils for about the same price as regular gasoline.

… that’s how much base oil is on the market.

 

[userfriendly]

Slowly decreasing. But still there. Most mono grades are group 2s right now just because it’s easier.

Mono grades don’t have the pricing support because of the economy of scale. For every 1 gallon of a mono grade engine oil made, there’s probably 1000 gallons of 15w40 made. So you have a slower moving SKU, more warehouse time, just added cost supporting it.


On the wholesale side, mono grades are about 50 cents a gallon more expensive than a conventional 15w40. Basically the same price as a syn blend 15w40.

While I have you here, on the commercial side can I assume that Caterpillar drive train oil, TO-4 are group two and locomotive 20w40 and SAE 40s are group one?
HF Sinclair are big into their Red Giant brand and it looks like they have group one base oil production.

 

[Foxtrot08]

While I have you here, on the commercial side can I assume that Caterpillar drive train oil, TO-4 are group two and locomotive 20w40 and SAE 40s are group one?
HF Sinclair are big into their Red Giant brand and it looks like they have group one base oil production.

Most rail road engine oils are group 1s still.


Primarily because ARG - now DA lubricants - controls that market in a big way. And the base oils (group 1) made in Bradford PA are essentially perfect for that application.

 

[userfriendly]

www.dalube.com

Found it.
Never heard of it before.

https://ilma.org

 

[Foxtrot08]

www.dalube.com

Found it.
Never heard of it before.

https://ilma.org

They bought Brad Penn brand from ARG. I’m not exactly sure all of what’s included. If it included their Rail road engine oil or not. Let alone the other specialty oils - specifically like the old Witco / Kensol brands. Or if ARG kept that.


I technically sell ARG rail road 40w, Witco mineral seal oil / Kensol 61H. But I have two different reps… and I honestly haven’t seen either of them since before covid. So I never really asked. I do know our billing and contact stuff changed.

So something happened. I’m just unclear on the details really.

 

[userfriendly]

They bought Brad Penn brand from ARG. I’m not exactly sure all of what’s included. If it included their Rail road engine oil or not. Let alone the other specialty oils - specifically like the old Witco / Kensol brands. Or if ARG kept that.


I technically sell ARG rail road 40w, Witco mineral seal oil / Kensol 61H. But I have two different reps… and I honestly haven’t seen either of them since before covid. So I never really asked. I do know our billing and contact stuff changed.

So something happened. I’m just unclear on the details really.

I left the RR industry 4 years ago after 12,000 shifts over 42 years.
A drum of Chevron 20w40 was $1,100 or about $800 USD in 2020.
Switching from Esso SAE 40 to 20w40 Chevron dropped oil consumption 50%.
Not all of the locomotives on the Mickey Mouse class three required a Zn free engine oil, but that’s what they all got.
Sometimes there was a three week delivery wait.
Management on RRs is very top down, meaning nobody is allowed to make a decision. Promotions are based on loyalty.
Solution, order 10 drums and wait for the phone to ring. Wait a month and get three of the ten.

 

[SC Maintenance]

So if this oil actually has a lot of group three as speculated, that would also mean it has the typical seal conditioners of a synthetic yes? I avoid synthetic in my oldest car because it has never seen synthetic, and I don't care to introduce it now.

 

[userfriendly]

So if this oil actually has a lot of group three as speculated, that would also mean it has the typical seal conditioners of a synthetic yes? I avoid synthetic in my oldest car because it has never seen synthetic, and I don't care to introduce it now.

If it was up to me, I’d bring a finished product in by the rail car load with this base oil blend and that additive package.
Mississauga, Ontario is only 870 miles from Superior, Wisconsin by rail.
Omaha,NE is even closer.

 

[OilUzer]

According to Amsoil's testing the VI properties are:

View attachment 232211


According to Lubes and Greases GrpIII base oils are squarely in this range:

https://www.lubesngreases.com/magazine/28_2/base-oils-and-their-applications/


Source: API

Group I base oils are usually solvent extracted and dewaxed oils with viscosity indexes in the 80s, sulfur levels above 0.03% wt. and saturates less than 90%. The crude source makes a big difference in the type of Group I base stock produced. My experience with them includes a very naphthenic crude, which resulted in a 90N (very volatile), a 300N and a bright stock. I also worked with a more paraffinic crude, which produced a 100N, a mid-viscosity neutral and bright stock. In addition, there are such byproducts as lube extracts, waxes and asphalt.

Group II base oils are produced using hydrogen in a process called hydrogenation or hydrotreating. Group III base oils are made in much the same way as Group II mineral oils, except the hydrogenation process is coupled with high temperatures and high pressures. The cracked material is then separated into viscosity grades, dewaxed catalytically and finished with mild hydrotreating. The result is two or three viscosities of high VI (over 90 for Group II and 120 for Group III), virtually no sulfur (<0.03% wt) and saturates well into the 90%+ range. Because of the cracking process, no bright stock is produced and wax is relatively nonexistent. No extracts are produced, either. Group IV is reserved for polyalphaolefins, which are truly synthetic and are produced from a specific stream refined from crude.

Among the products in Group V are naphthenics. These base oils from naphthenic crudes are processed in various ways, including solvent treated and hydrotreated. There is no specific processing used or set limits on VI, sulfur or saturates. They are often distilled to various viscosity cuts without further treatment.

Group II base oils represent the majority of base oils refined in North America. The move to Group II was facilitated by the fact that a wider slate of crudes could be used and that there were less yield losses because the reduced crude was essentially “cleaned up” by the process. Less yield loss, wider crude slate processing and higher-quality finished product is a no brainer.

To a great extent, the properties of base oils dictate how they are used. In almost all cases, the finished products that are produced owe a lot to the additive technology that goes into any application. Additives typically improve the oil properties (e.g. pour point depressants), protect the base oil (e.g. antioxidants) or protect the lubricated surface (e.g. corrosion inhibitors).

View attachment 232212

Typical Technical Properties table:
5W-20 VI >= 200
Is 200 a typo? Just curious!

 

[Nuclear_42]

I guess it truly is marketed for the commercial market. I checked Amsoil's website and shopping under my vehicle it offers all the way down to OE. You can only find the blend if you look under motor oil only.

 

[JustN89]

I guess there’s not a ton of MBAs on this board. You really think Amsoil, or any company, would bother to develop and market a product without some at least some assurance that there was a market demand for it? No, the target market probably isn’t the people in this thread. However, most of the people posting in this thread don’t buy Amsoil anyways. They’re just the same ones who flock to every Amsoil thread to tell the world what they really think about the brand, as if hoping that someone, eventually, will care about their opinion.

 

[dnewton3]

I said in the Amsoil OE thread that the brand was cashing in on their reputation to offer lower-tier products at inflated prices, and this further bolsters my belief in that.

Kind of like some of the Deere mowers we see at Home Depot, Lowes, etc? They don't exactly set a high bar, relative to their better quality high-end mowers at the dealerships. Or the differences between robust products at appliance stores vs the low-price stuff at discount warehouses. Etc ...

Look, we have to admit that there are brand-loyal folks, and some of them don't have the cash to pay for top-tier stuff. That induces a market opportunity for the OE to sell the brand products to the faithful, and not break the bank. It's about market share, and profits. That can't be news to anyone.

Those who are loyal to high-end products still can get their stuff; it's not like Amsoil, Deere or others are eliminating top products in favor of only making the cheap stuff. I find the cheap stuff boring and not worthy of my money, but that doesn't mean my opinion should eliminate choices from others, or prohibit a company from making all it can legally.

 

[Foxtrot08]

I guess there’s not a ton of MBAs on this board. You really think Amsoil, or any company, would bother to develop and market a product without some at least some assurance that there was a market demand for it? No, the target market probably isn’t the people in this thread. However, most of the people posting in this thread don’t buy Amsoil anyways. They’re just the same ones who flock to every Amsoil thread to tell the world what they really think about the brand, as if hoping that someone, eventually, will care about their opinion.

Yes. It’s not an “I think” it’s an “I know” thing.


P66 did the same thing and failed with a “premium” Synthetic blend. As I said, another major brand is following suit right now with the same concept. Another brand, did the same thing regionally. And I don’t think it was ever blended. Even though it was formulated, marketed and “launched.”


Respectfully, I’m probably one of the most qualified people in the U.S. to say anything about that market.

They can do whatever they want. But, that market is very, very hard to compete in. And it’s also, a dying market.