I think Mr. Drive By Accuser has left the thread...
Amsoil MTF - Honda owners beware?
- Thread starter reynoldsequation
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Originally Posted By: JZiggy
Have used Amsoil MTF in a number of older Honda MTs. All of my "data" points to it being an excellent fluid for this application. I rarely see more than a microgram of iron on the drain plug magnet even after 30k+ miles.
You must have excellent vision to see a microgram with the naked eye.
Have used Amsoil MTF in a number of older Honda MTs. All of my "data" points to it being an excellent fluid for this application. I rarely see more than a microgram of iron on the drain plug magnet even after 30k+ miles.
You must have excellent vision to see a microgram with the naked eye.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: kschachn
I think Mr. Drive By Accuser has left the thread...
Quote:
reynoldsequation: There will be considerable discussion at 9thCivic so feel free to join us down there. Do be aware, though, we practice good manners over there. As a rule we try to gather evidence carefully before jumping on people.
Yes, we like to have real data and good manners here as well before we drop unsupported bombs from wannabe tribologists.
I think Mr. Drive By Accuser has left the thread...
Quote:
reynoldsequation: There will be considerable discussion at 9thCivic so feel free to join us down there. Do be aware, though, we practice good manners over there. As a rule we try to gather evidence carefully before jumping on people.
Yes, we like to have real data and good manners here as well before we drop unsupported bombs from wannabe tribologists.
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jeez... totally forgot about this thread. Sorry guys.
9thCivic user Squiggy and I had nearly identical results with Amsoil Manual Synchromesh Tranny Fluid 5W-30. According to Amsoil reference material it's exactly what 9th gen Si's use, which is interesting since the Si has a LSD and right on the Amsoil MT fluid it says "not to be used in limited slip differentials." So glad I sent samples to Blackstone.
I'll look it up the data and repost it here. Otherwise all the pics and UOA are posted on 9thCivic.com.
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The problem disappeared immediately after using the OEM MTF. Blackstone confirms huge improvement. That 2012 Si now has 86,000 miles, no issues at all. Tranny has been bulletproof despite two teenage drivers new to manuals.
To confirm, UOA stabilized at much lower levels with Honda MTF. Long story but Amsoil basically denied everything... wanted me to continue using product to establish further analysis. Not a chance.
Still can't believe Amsoil would recommend a product "not for use in LSD" when the car has exactly that.
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If I didn't post one years ago when this issue first came up, will post something now. Have several UOA's since this episode.
If I didn't post this years ago, here's an updated UOA for Honda's MTF that Amsoil dealer Pablo requested. After buying the car I changed to Amsoil's Synchromesh almost right away. After the first UOA -- and hearing of two similar problems from my buds over at 9thCivic.com, I switched back to the OEM. UOA quickly started to improve, as shown here.
Note: Wanting to be absolutely certain of my conclusions, I also sent a sample (taken at the same time) to OilAnalyzers, the Amsoil lab. Results were almost identical.
In other words, results improved dramatically once a proper lube was used, i.e., one intended for limited slip diffs. Keep in mind I was an Amsoil cult follower like some of you. They could do no wrong. "Lifetime" member, the week-long training academy ($1,000 at the time) a garage with thousands in inventory, etc.
While I have no extensive knowledge of Amsoil's recent test results versus other lubes -- who can be impressed when they compare Amsoil performance to minimum GM standards? That is not the Amsoil I knew. They'd go toe-to-toe with all the other lubes and bury them in every test. Don't they still do oil v. oil comparisons using the 4-ball D4172 and other ASTM procedures? (except for Noack)
Here's something completely anecdotal: Take it FWIW, probably not much since you weren't there.
Like dozens of others I spent a week in Superior with corporate insiders. Ate lunch with them, attended classes with "Bud Weiser" (his real name), and of course enjoyed happy hour. Bottom line? I wasn't impressed. Even back then (mid 90's) it was apparent that the hard nosed, no compromise founder known as "AJ" was turning the company over to his young son, Alan and his buddy Dean. Have no idea who's running it now, probably Alan. Nice enough guy for sure. Just not convinced he has the same core values about quality as the ole' man. Certainly not the impression I got. Another thing that struck me was how small the operation was. Yes, they had a big warehouse and plenty of raw materials stored in their field tanks. (The first view of Lake Superior coming over the hill is one of the most spectacular you'll ever see) But the company itself and number of ppl running it were a lot smaller than I had envisioned. Perhaps that's good; could mean "lean and mean". That part is irrelevant. I'm more concerned with the underlying philosophy... which historically is "first in synthetics", not only the first company to do synthetics but the very best possible oil you can buy, period. And they could prove it in each and every case.
Back to the Synchromesh MTF. It's not that the company made a mistake and wouldn't admit it that bugs me. No, it were the insights into how the so-called Amsoil "warranty" works, which I saw in detail. If dealers and users harbor any illusion about Amsoil's willingness to back up their products, know this: You will literally need to litigate. You will need to prove beyond all doubt that it was an Amsoil product -- and nothing but -- that has caused your issue. Which is basically impossible. And as I found, you'll also need to keep using the fluid long enough to destroy your equipment, after which they will probably say the equipment was defective anyway. Yeah, good luck with that.
Note: Wanting to be absolutely certain of my conclusions, I also sent a sample (taken at the same time) to OilAnalyzers, the Amsoil lab. Results were almost identical.
In other words, results improved dramatically once a proper lube was used, i.e., one intended for limited slip diffs. Keep in mind I was an Amsoil cult follower like some of you. They could do no wrong. "Lifetime" member, the week-long training academy ($1,000 at the time) a garage with thousands in inventory, etc.
While I have no extensive knowledge of Amsoil's recent test results versus other lubes -- who can be impressed when they compare Amsoil performance to minimum GM standards? That is not the Amsoil I knew. They'd go toe-to-toe with all the other lubes and bury them in every test. Don't they still do oil v. oil comparisons using the 4-ball D4172 and other ASTM procedures? (except for Noack)
Here's something completely anecdotal: Take it FWIW, probably not much since you weren't there.
Like dozens of others I spent a week in Superior with corporate insiders. Ate lunch with them, attended classes with "Bud Weiser" (his real name), and of course enjoyed happy hour. Bottom line? I wasn't impressed. Even back then (mid 90's) it was apparent that the hard nosed, no compromise founder known as "AJ" was turning the company over to his young son, Alan and his buddy Dean. Have no idea who's running it now, probably Alan. Nice enough guy for sure. Just not convinced he has the same core values about quality as the ole' man. Certainly not the impression I got. Another thing that struck me was how small the operation was. Yes, they had a big warehouse and plenty of raw materials stored in their field tanks. (The first view of Lake Superior coming over the hill is one of the most spectacular you'll ever see) But the company itself and number of ppl running it were a lot smaller than I had envisioned. Perhaps that's good; could mean "lean and mean". That part is irrelevant. I'm more concerned with the underlying philosophy... which historically is "first in synthetics", not only the first company to do synthetics but the very best possible oil you can buy, period. And they could prove it in each and every case.
Back to the Synchromesh MTF. It's not that the company made a mistake and wouldn't admit it that bugs me. No, it were the insights into how the so-called Amsoil "warranty" works, which I saw in detail. If dealers and users harbor any illusion about Amsoil's willingness to back up their products, know this: You will literally need to litigate. You will need to prove beyond all doubt that it was an Amsoil product -- and nothing but -- that has caused your issue. Which is basically impossible. And as I found, you'll also need to keep using the fluid long enough to destroy your equipment, after which they will probably say the equipment was defective anyway. Yeah, good luck with that.
I guess I am failing to see what the problem is. Seems like you are laying it on a little thick.
First, looking at the UOA other than the Honda MTF shearing like crazy, everything looks fine. Break in metals in your first UOA look about normal. Is that what you are tearing into Amsoil about?
Amsoil MTF should not be used in dedicated limited slip differentials. The CIVIC transaxle by definition - diff shares fluid with the MT, no? It's fine. What mistake was made?
First, looking at the UOA other than the Honda MTF shearing like crazy, everything looks fine. Break in metals in your first UOA look about normal. Is that what you are tearing into Amsoil about?
Amsoil MTF should not be used in dedicated limited slip differentials. The CIVIC transaxle by definition - diff shares fluid with the MT, no? It's fine. What mistake was made?
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Because it's a helical LSD, not a clutch based unit. Amsoil understands the application.
MolaKule
Staff member
OK, so you have this chip on your shoulder about certain Amsoil personalities, etc., but what does that have to do with the quality and applicability of the product?
I don't think you have proven any cause and effect relationship here. Forget your "buds" on the other website as we would like to see definitive data proving a problem and that hasn't been shown.
I have a 2015 Honda Accord MT6- never liked the Honda MTF in cold climate. I have Redline MTL on the shelf, my go to is Pentosin MTF2 which has given good service but is very difficult for me to source. Is MTL suitable? Is Fuchs Sintofluid 75w-80 close to the MTF2 ?
MolaKule
Staff member
dfarr67:
Please start a new thread in this same Forum.
Please start a new thread in this same Forum.
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