Amsoil MTF - Honda owners beware?

[reynoldsequation]

At least a few of us (at 9thcivic.com) have recently noticed very questionable results from using Amsoil MTF in our manual transmissions. In my case the wear metals are sky high, borderline critical. All cars are within a year old. I tested mine because somebody claims to have lost a tranny at 80,000 miles to Amsoil MTF. As a former Amsoil salesman for their industrial lubricants division, that got me and others thinking.

If there is interest, will post results and pics. But in general be very cautious about using Amsoil MTF in high heat applications. In my case oxidation was surprisingly high (43) while Aluminum (86) was also quite high for only 4000 lubricant miles. Normal OEM fluid replacement is 30,000 miles.

The visual results (of used Amsoil MTF) were also shocking, with all samples looking like black diesel oil. (Remember, MTF is free of combustion related contaminants)

More to follow. For now, recommend immediate replacement to OEM or equivalent.

 

[simple_gifts]

Could you post some reference threads?

Most here aren't going to dump a premium lube on a "1 poster" j/k.

Seems like Redline also has some "unfavorite" applications too.

 

[antiqueshell]

If the specification of the Amsoil is correct there should be NO issue at all.

Perhaps you need to call Amsoil and check to see if they had a defective production batch, it does happen.

Sounds like GL -5 fluid. Does your Civic have any yellow metals in it as well?

 

[heynow]

Are you referring to Amsoil Manual Transmission & Transaxle Gear Lube 75W-90 or Manual Synchromesh Transmission Fluid 5W-30?

 

[Artem]

I call baloney on the OPs story, respectfully, of course.

I used this fluid in my 2007 Honda Civic Si for 110,000 miles since the car was new and the OEM fluid was replaced @ 20k miles or so.

The 9th gen Civic Si spec's the exact same fluid, as per Amsoil's site.

I used to change the fluid every 15-20k miles (roughly every 4-5 engine oil changes @ 3k intervals) because I used to drive the Si very hard on the street and even raced it at the track. I never had any issues nor was I even close to "loosing a transmission" because of the fluid.

If someone's transmission failed, I'd like to see scientific data that proves it was the fluid that caused it, and not the poor driving of the owner, which destroyed the transmission or just straight up premature mechanical failure...

Unless Honda changed the transmission from the 8th gen model and uses different metals that are not compatible with Amsoil's fluid, i don't buy this story.

p.s. I use Amsoil's transmission fluid in my wife's Scion tC, my 98 Toyota Camry, 2007 Civic EX and will soon put it in my 2011 Toyota Avalon. Both the Automatic and Manual tranny fluid has served me well for YEARS!

 

[silverrat]

My Civic has been running syncromesh and seems to be fine.

 

[oilboy123]

I don't think QC at Amsoil would let bad fluid get in the marketplace.

 

[Pablo]

A little objective evidence might be in order to make this a tad more believable. "...former Amsoil salesman for their industrial lubricants division...." How does that work?

First of all I have sold MTF to hundreds and hundreds of HONDA customers. Never one complaint. We have seen a couple UOA's posted here, nothing out of control. And certainly no dead MT's.

What is Amsoil saying? I have asked and we will see.

Let's look at this another way - why ONLY Honda? What is unique about their MT's? It seems like if the Amsoil MTF was junk we would see it in other MT's as well. I have sold MTF to many other high heat application MT's. But again - no failures, zero, zilch.

 

[fdcg27]

I don't suppose you'd care to post your UOA of this lube?
I also don't suppose you'd care to share some UOAs of HG after similar use?
I've had a number of stick Hondas over the years, and I've never found HG to be anything special, and really no better in use than the motor oil Honda used to spec for its manual transaxles.
HG is at least reasonably cheap.
I'm not a big Amsoil fan, although I have some in the stash.
Amsoil does have a well-earned reputation for offering quality products that do what Amsoil says they'll do.
I doubt that anyone would have problems with any gearbox using an Amsoil recommended lube in it.

 

[Donald]

Can the OP post a scan of the UOA? Not just the raw numbers.

 

[HangFire]

From what a search comes up with, there's one guy over on 9thcivic.com who had a tranny go bad and is warning off everyone else. Another has dark fluid early. I don't doubt these experiences, but did he have a bad tranny to start with, bad fluid or fluid mismatch?

The thread is "Changing manual transmission fluid" (I generally don't link forums from other forums; you can find your own way. It's not hard.)

There is a UOA, but you have to be a logged-in member to view:

http://9thcivic.com/forum/attachments/amsoil-mtf-analysis-pdf.27379/

OK That's kind of a forum to forum link. But not really.

 

[iluvhonda]

Last we not forget these K-Series transmissions have problems from the start.

 

[Pablo]

I started a dialog with Amsoil tech. I will find out more but there are no reports of such things with Honda transmissions and MTF.

It's interesting. They must talking about be ~2012-2013 Civics (right? with limited slip(?). They clearly do not understand oxidation numbers the number alone without a virgin number is meaningless, in fact at 43, sounds unchanged. And yes, with some research these are not robust transmissions.

Some of the stuff written does not exactly ring true. The thin watery stuff seems odd as the viscosity of 9.4 is about virgin.

 

[reynoldsequation]

This is Synchomesh MTF.

 

[reynoldsequation]

You are wise to question this. In fact, as an Amsoil dealer of some 15 years I hate to even bring this up. But in the interest of fairness and FYI, I will proceed....

 

[antiqueshell]

Wouldn't the black color they mention represent corrosion?

I still wonder if there are any yellow metals in those transaxles?

But I believe that most products labeled "synchomesh" today from most lube companies are safe for use with yellow metals.

 

[reynoldsequation]

Absolutely... I will post any and all information. Let me run through the rest of these responses and I will post both my UOA (from Oil Analyzers) and a couple revealing pics.

 

[reynoldsequation]

Excellent research Hang! ... Yes, the UOA you attached is mine. Last name, however, is Bartlow not Bartlon.

As you can see the car is virtually new. Wear metals are generally higher in a newer engine/tranny, right? Still, Oil Analyzers dismissed this new car theory by listing Aluminum in the "critical" area based on what we know is normal. And the fluid had (at most) 4000 miles on it. That's the corker.

I am sending the remaining sample to Blackstone for a second opinion.

 

[reynoldsequation]

I was not aware of any long term problems with this tranny. I do know the 2012 SI (mine) has the same limited slip tranny as the Acura TSX. So perhaps we can find something from the Acura TSX boards. TSB's even...

For now, do you (iluvhonda) have any info on the 'troubled' history of this particular transmission? Appreciate it... thx.

P.S. You see, besides a possible fluid issue, there's the possibility of structural issues within the tranny itself. Given the extraordinary oxidation rate (for a top-flight Amsoil product anyway) I suspect Extreme Heat is at least major variable here.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: reynoldsequation
Given the extraordinary oxidation rate


Please expand on this. What do you mean?