Amsoil & Certifications

[buster]

I don’t want to make this into an Amsoil bashing thread, but I take issue with some of their business practices and marketing and this is a good forum to discuss it. So for the Amsoil reps, to bad, it’s being discussed.

We know Amsoil meets the ZDP level required to meet the API SN specification. This was just confirmed by PQIA’s analysis. Why doesn’t Amsoil certify their SS line? Base oil interchange is a lame excuse. There are many interchange options available for suppliers of PAO and Grp III base oils. That makes no sense to me.

Certification costs are low, and many other small blenders pay them to approve their oils. What is Amsoil’s excuse? Why does everyone else play by the rules with no issues, except for Amsoil? The only conclusion I come to is that Amsoil does NOT run all the required testing to really validate the performance of their oils. Unlike Mobil 1 EP, which actually MEETS GF-5/SN, Amsoil does not and there must be a reason.

Recently on another forum, a retired CVX tribologist claimed Amsoil 5w40 Euro does not pass some of the required testing. He claims they tested it and it failed. I can’t confirm how true this is, but I found it interesting.

When you reference specifications that your product meets, but use words like “Recommended for” or “Meets or Exceeds” and do not actually test it, then it’s kind of deceptive.

Discuss.

 

[demarpaint]

First of all I agree with everything you've said. It's all about saving money. Why bother paying for certs when all you have to say is the product meets or beats the spec. People buy and use the product, and take Amsoil's and their reps words as Gospel. Their business model works, no need for them to change it. JMO

 

[JHZR2]

They may be hiding something, or may not be hiding something. For the mass public who never analyze it and just take things on their face value, it may be a dangerous thing. But we have to assume a few things, I think:

1) They are a corporation that buys basestocks and additives from major manufacturers. Even if they bought "low end", it still should be excellent for >>50% of the vehicles on the road.

2) As a corporation that moves a good deal of product, they likely do follow "best practices", and test/study their products.

3) They have access to the latest specifications and can cross their blending approaches for adds and basestocks against the requirements. At least some of the testing can likely be done in-house.

So why not just pay for the certs? Valid question. But what if there is a performance advantage, rather than cost cutting that they are going after by not doing the certs? OP cited ZDDP, but there are a lot of knobs to turn, what if it was other tradespace?

Fortunately we can at least gauge performance by wear metal rates to have a relative understanding of how the oil performs. A few ppm may be meaningless, but if chunks of metal are wearing off, it is another story. I dont see that being the case.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
They may be hiding something, or may not be hiding something.


A lot of truth to that statement, and something we'll never know. As I said their business model works, no doubt about it. They've been down this road before with the certs, and if they felt certifying their entire line would boost sales and increase profits they would have. Something else to consider they can always say their product is better because we use more [xyz], and it isn't allowed to meet certain certifications. A lot of people buy into that, maybe there is some truth to it too.

Why mess with what they've determined to be their perfect business plan? In the end profits are the bottom line for any business.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Something else to consider they can always say their product is better because we use more [xyz], and it isn't allowed to meet certain certifications. A lot of people buy into that.



See if they did that, likely more people would be at ease. But that isnt clearly stated either.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Something else to consider they can always say their product is better because we use more [xyz], and it isn't allowed to meet certain certifications. A lot of people buy into that.



See if they did that, likely more people would be at ease. But that isnt clearly stated either.


Didn't they make some claims like that years back for their SSO and ASM line? Something about using more ZDDP or something like that and they couldn't make the certs because of that? Also certs would drive up their costs, since they are a small blender and didn't feel it was needed? [You know feel sorry for them because they are the little guy, but they make the best product because they say so.] Or was that something an Amsoil guy might have told me? You're right it isn't clearly spelled out, but that is most likely the way they intended it to be.

 

[buster]

It used to be ZDP was their excuse. Now they use API levels. Then it became base oil interchange, and that is baloney.

I simply think they don't run all the required testing, which may or may not be an issue. I don't think it's right though.

I would think certifying the SS line would benefit them. It would put some consumer fears to rest.

 

[OVERKILL]

I'd like it if they got a few of the manufacturer certs like LL-01 for example. Those mean more to me than the API stuff.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: buster
It used to be ZDP was their excuse. Now they use API levels. Then it became base oil interchange, and that is baloney.

I simply think they don't run all the required testing, which may or may not be an issue. I don't think it's right though.

I would think certifying the SS line would benefit them. It would put some consumer fears to rest.




I think if certifying the SS line would sell more product and generate more profits they would have done it. They've been down this road with their marketing staff, and probably decided not certifying the SS line was the way to go for them. Besides there is a certain mysticism they can use because they didn't certify it. Some people believe it must be better because it contains more of the good stuff in quantities not allowed to meet certs. I've heard comments along those lines over the years when discussing Amsoil, RL, and RP for that matter, haven't you?

 

[SargeBB]

Because of Amsoil's, 'We publish the specifications, but do not have most of our products certified,' business practices, I use only a limited number of their products. It the very rural area where we live, lubricant choices are limited...I therefore do order and use Amsoil's 75W-110 GL-5, although it lacks certification, and their #2 grease with moly-additive for the center zerk of Toyota's double cardan u-joints, and certain sliders for tractor applications (again, no certification). I'd use other Amsoil products if they simply paid for certifications. If they did that then I'd be one of the more people that JHZR2 mentioned would be, "At ease." This 'ol boy wants more than corporate assurance of product excellence.

 

[buster]

Boosting the detergency of your oil and showing me a 4-ball wear test doesn't do it for me.

Take the niche HTO-06 Honda spec as an example. When this came out, I asked them if they felt their 5w30 met it. I was told they weren't sure and that they were looking into it. They also said it may need a "booster". Ok, fair enough. I know Amsoil makes very good oil so I would assume it met the spec. Well, it turned out that they only claimed that spec for their SSO 0w30, which at the time was the only SS oil. Things like this make me wonder...

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Until they have a lubricant or emissions system failure there's no reason for them to change their business practices.

 

[buster]

They average about 20 claims a year. I believe this was stated in one of their Action News magazines. Correct me if I'm wrong. Most had nothing to do with the oil they claim.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: buster
They average about 20 claims a year. I believe this was stated in one of their Action News magazines. Correct me if I'm wrong. Most had nothing to do with the oil they claim.

And how does this compare to industry average, taking total amount of oil sold in relation to number of claims?

At the end of the day, if you have an engine failure as a result of oil issue, it's going to be oil manufacturer who should foot the bill, not API. So why bother with API certifications? As long as Amsoil is willing to step up and honor their engine warranty, that is all that matters, IMO.

At the end of the day, Amsoil is a niche product and most people purchase it for reasons other than API certs. It's like deciding whether to purchase a Rolex watch based on whether or not Rolex makes their watches according to ISO 9000.

It probably just does not make any business sense for Amsoil to get those certs. Alas, buster has a valid question in general.

 

[INDYMAC]

Maybe some of their products don't shear fast enough to meet industry fuel conservation standards. If you want certifications, just buy their EO or XL lubricants. I honestly don't understand the concerns about quality of the SS line, but I do cringe at their marketing wrt extended drains. I think they are dangerous for anyone who doesn't use a oil analysis program.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Maybe some of their products don't shear fast enough to meet industry fuel conservation standards. If you want certifications, just buy their EO or XL lubricants. I honestly don't understand the concerns about quality of the SS line, but I do cringe at their marketing wrt extended drains. I think they are dangerous for anyone who doesn't use a oil analysis program.


Most of the euro certs go hand-in-hand with extended drains..... Like LL-01

 

[buster]

It's really not a quality issue for me. Amsoil has been around for over 35 years. I know they make quality products. It's about their business ethics and how they operate is what I am more interested in. I think some of theirs practices are deceptive.

 

[D189379]

Originally Posted By: buster
It's really not a quality issue for me. Amsoil has been around for over 35 years. I know they make quality products. It's about their business ethics and how they operate is what I am more interested in. I think some of theirs practices are deceptive.


Their sales strategy still baffles me. If their oil is as good as they say, why not make it available in stores? Why can't they just go head to head with all the other motor oils out there and let their superior quality do the talking?

If I had a motor oil that was superior to everything else, why wouldn't I want it on the shelves where 95% of people buy their oil?

I can't wait until they do a test where they rub 2 oil coated sticks together and claim theirs takes the longest to catch fire, therefore it will protect your engine the best.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: D189379
If I had a motor oil that was superior to everything else, why wouldn't I want it on the shelves where 95% of people buy their oil?

Because it would cost you a pretty penny to secure shelf space at a typical large retail store. Every store such as Walmart has a limited amount of shelf space available. Manufacturers have to fight for this space. Whoever pays the most, gets the space. That is extra cost that would eat away at Amsoil's profits. I for one perfectly understand it, especially that they're not trying to be a mass market seller. Those 95% of people that you refer to above is not Amsoil's target market, or at least very little of it is. Amsoil is a niche product.

With that said, I have seem Amsoil on the shelves of some smaller auto part stores here in the US. Not at major retailers though, for the reasons stated above.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Lack of marketing knowledge is apparent here. Bringing a product to the likes of Walmart etc. is a HUGE undertaking.

Amsoil is MLM. So what? A lot of great products are sold this way. It's a low cost way to develop a niche product.

Niche is the key word as noted above.