AISIN T-IV ATF Input wanted

[dave1251]

When Phillips, Chevron, Valvoline, BP, AMSOIL, and Shell recommend using their LV fluid for mutiple transmissions as each does I know each company knows the potential blowback and the consequences of not properly vetting their recommendations. Several blenders and additive companies have provided the data for why their ATF is recommended for use.

Toyota, AW, GM, Ford, and ect is not in the lubrication business.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by jrvn
Originally Posted by Sayjac
Quote
….. their ATF-0T4 (T-IV) he said they have 3 different ATF fluids for Toyota Transmissions and they all are sourced from the OEM suppliers for Toyota although he wouldn't give me the names of the sources since its all Hush hush about divulging that info, so I mentioned would Mobil be a source because I know the OEM T-IV or JWS 3309 is a Mobil product but he wouldn't come clean on it.
Not sure why the "hush hush", sounds silly to me. So in essence the Aisin tech dude said (or implied) they are using the XOM manufactured/blended Toyota T-IV ATF and putting it in their own bottle? That's the way it appears to read here imo. The Toyota T-IV ATF product is clearly in an XOM bottle. I suppose if you trust his information, want to stick with T-IV and can obtain the Aisin ATF bottle for significantly less than Toyota T-IV, seems a logical choice.

Fwiw, I'd add the Aisin ATF (Honda) DW1 bottle makes the same "OEM Engineered Formula" claim, and Amazon bullet points, "Genuine OEM automatic transmission fluid". VOA's posted here have proven the bullet point to be a false claim.

the hush hush is that Toyota nor Aftermarket suppliers never give out the names of their suppliers so its all a guessing game on who manufactors the OEM fluid nor do we really have any idea what source or formula the aftermarket equivilents are, its a pretty good guess based on the bottle type and the fact that JWS 3309 is manufactured by MOBIL there is also a thread floating around here at BITOG that has the MOBIL company heading with the Toyota T-IV formulary on it. Now as far as aftermarket sourcing their stuff from MOBIL being exactly the same as JWS 3309 (T-IV) is the reason for my thread having spoken to a Rep from AISIN its is but he didn't come right out and directly say because he told me they are not suppose to divulge that info or else Toyota will have problems with them because people not buying their fluid or maybe copyright violations. I agree 100% with what u say I don't know if I truly trust what the Rep told me with out more validations im trying to get here.


Aisin designed and manufactured the unit they know the composition of every seal and gasket in it. If they spec a fluid and have it produced to that spec regardless if its Mobil or any other company the fluid is OE for Aisin units,
Using Aisin branded fluid in an Aisin unit is a no brainer especially if it not a dex spec unit (some AW units are). IMHO it is that simple, don't over think it.

 

[jrvn]

Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by jrvn
Originally Posted by Sayjac
Quote
….. their ATF-0T4 (T-IV) he said they have 3 different ATF fluids for Toyota Transmissions and they all are sourced from the OEM suppliers for Toyota although he wouldn't give me the names of the sources since its all Hush hush about divulging that info, so I mentioned would Mobil be a source because I know the OEM T-IV or JWS 3309 is a Mobil product but he wouldn't come clean on it.
Not sure why the "hush hush", sounds silly to me. So in essence the Aisin tech dude said (or implied) they are using the XOM manufactured/blended Toyota T-IV ATF and putting it in their own bottle? That's the way it appears to read here imo. The Toyota T-IV ATF product is clearly in an XOM bottle. I suppose if you trust his information, want to stick with T-IV and can obtain the Aisin ATF bottle for significantly less than Toyota T-IV, seems a logical choice.

Fwiw, I'd add the Aisin ATF (Honda) DW1 bottle makes the same "OEM Engineered Formula" claim, and Amazon bullet points, "Genuine OEM automatic transmission fluid". VOA's posted here have proven the bullet point to be a false claim.

the hush hush is that Toyota nor Aftermarket suppliers never give out the names of their suppliers so its all a guessing game on who manufactors the OEM fluid nor do we really have any idea what source or formula the aftermarket equivilents are, its a pretty good guess based on the bottle type and the fact that JWS 3309 is manufactured by MOBIL there is also a thread floating around here at BITOG that has the MOBIL company heading with the Toyota T-IV formulary on it. Now as far as aftermarket sourcing their stuff from MOBIL being exactly the same as JWS 3309 (T-IV) is the reason for my thread having spoken to a Rep from AISIN its is but he didn't come right out and directly say because he told me they are not suppose to divulge that info or else Toyota will have problems with them because people not buying their fluid or maybe copyright violations. I agree 100% with what u say I don't know if I truly trust what the Rep told me with out more validations im trying to get here.


Aisin designed and manufactured the unit they know the composition of every seal and gasket in it. If they spec a fluid and have it produced to that spec regardless if its Mobil or any other company the fluid is OE for Aisin units,
Using Aisin branded fluid in an Aisin unit is a no brainer especially if it not a dex spec unit (some AW units are). IMHO it is that simple, don't over think it.
this is what im assuming AISIN manufactured the transmission therefore AISIN told Toyota this is the formula needed to have the trans. work the best in them and then Toyota contacts ATF manufactorers in this case pretty certain its MOBIL Corp. to produce, my thought is they also possibly source their specific formula thru other manufactorers like Idemitsu who can produce it thru their plants but have no hard evidence of that. Another thing of note is that the source of AISIN fluid is called AISINaftermarket in California, I contacted them and was told the get the fluid from at least 3 different manufactorers of the same Toyota OEM stuff, that's just what I was told from AISIN Tech support, I was pushing to get the names of those 3 sources but they balked in giving them out for some reason, which is usual when it comes to naming Toyota OEM parts/fluids for some reason.

 

[Gebo]

Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by jrvn
Originally Posted by Sayjac
Quote
….. their ATF-0T4 (T-IV) he said they have 3 different ATF fluids for Toyota Transmissions and they all are sourced from the OEM suppliers for Toyota although he wouldn't give me the names of the sources since its all Hush hush about divulging that info, so I mentioned would Mobil be a source because I know the OEM T-IV or JWS 3309 is a Mobil product but he wouldn't come clean on it.
Not sure why the "hush hush", sounds silly to me. So in essence the Aisin tech dude said (or implied) they are using the XOM manufactured/blended Toyota T-IV ATF and putting it in their own bottle? That's the way it appears to read here imo. The Toyota T-IV ATF product is clearly in an XOM bottle. I suppose if you trust his information, want to stick with T-IV and can obtain the Aisin ATF bottle for significantly less than Toyota T-IV, seems a logical choice.

Fwiw, I'd add the Aisin ATF (Honda) DW1 bottle makes the same "OEM Engineered Formula" claim, and Amazon bullet points, "Genuine OEM automatic transmission fluid". VOA's posted here have proven the bullet point to be a false claim.

the hush hush is that Toyota nor Aftermarket suppliers never give out the names of their suppliers so its all a guessing game on who manufactors the OEM fluid nor do we really have any idea what source or formula the aftermarket equivilents are, its a pretty good guess based on the bottle type and the fact that JWS 3309 is manufactured by MOBIL there is also a thread floating around here at BITOG that has the MOBIL company heading with the Toyota T-IV formulary on it. Now as far as aftermarket sourcing their stuff from MOBIL being exactly the same as JWS 3309 (T-IV) is the reason for my thread having spoken to a Rep from AISIN its is but he didn't come right out and directly say because he told me they are not suppose to divulge that info or else Toyota will have problems with them because people not buying their fluid or maybe copyright violations. I agree 100% with what u say I don't know if I truly trust what the Rep told me with out more validations im trying to get here.


Aisin designed and manufactured the unit they know the composition of every seal and gasket in it. If they spec a fluid and have it produced to that spec regardless if its Mobil or any other company the fluid is OE for Aisin units,
Using Aisin branded fluid in an Aisin unit is a no brainer especially if it not a dex spec unit (some AW units are). IMHO it is that simple, don't over think it.



You really think using an Aisin recommended fluid in an Aisin made transmission is a good idea?

Well said +1

 

[jrvn]

CLUBLEXUS read post #4

 

[JustinH]

I'm surprised I haven't heard the argument for Maxlife in this application.

I have used Maxlife fluid in Scion/Toyota/Lexus and Hyundai applications with zero problems.

$17 per gallon.

 

[jrvn]

Originally Posted by JustinH
I'm surprised I haven't heard the argument for Maxlife in this application.

I have used Maxlife fluid in Scion/Toyota/Lexus and Hyundai applications with zero problems.

$17 per gallon.
lots of people use MAXLIFE in their Toyotas most have favorable outcomes ive come across a few that haven't, its because its a multi vehicle ATF not specific to a certain make or brand that has me leaning towards specifically engineered for my truck stuff

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by JustinH
I'm surprised I haven't heard the argument for Maxlife in this application.

I have used Maxlife fluid in Scion/Toyota/Lexus and Hyundai applications with zero problems.

$17 per gallon.


Maxlife is a dex VI clone and works fine applications that require a dex fluid. It is not the be all and end all, it is the jack of all trades of transmission fluids and master of none.
Some AW units spec dex fluid so why would it be an problem?

 

[dave1251]

The manufacturer may know what the material the unit was designed to use but there can and will be issues with changing of suppliers. I find this to be more plausible for the reason why a few of the transmissions may have issues with seals or other materials.

 

[Trav]

Dex VI was known to cause seal leaks in some transmissions,it was not as backwards compatible as they claimed for other manufacturers using dex spec fluid,
It had nothing to do with who produced the fluid. Allison had serious compatibility issues using dex VI in place of dex III until the updated the seal material.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted by Trav
Dex VI was known to cause seal leaks in some transmissions,it was not as backwards compatible as they claimed for other manufacturers using dex spec fluid,
It had nothing to do with who produced the fluid. Allison had serious compatibility issues using dex VI in place of dex III until the updated the seal material.

That's interesting and thanks for highlighting it, though I'm incapable of figuring out why is that so.

 

[Trav]

There has been a lot of reasons and speculation as to what the seal compatibility was over the years so I prefer to keep it simple and use spec fluids and fluid types (synthetic or mineral) and avoid any sort of problems.

 

[Exhaustgases]

Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by JustinH
I'm surprised I haven't heard the argument for Maxlife in this application.

I have used Maxlife fluid in Scion/Toyota/Lexus and Hyundai applications with zero problems.

$17 per gallon.


Maxlife is a dex VI clone and works fine applications that require a dex fluid. It is not the be all and end all, it is the jack of all trades of transmission fluids and master of none.
Some AW units spec dex fluid so why would it be an problem?

Trav, right on. Transmission fluid is a fine art as well as engineering. Maxlife is touted as a fits all fluid, for Toyota, Mercedes, GM, Ford, Mopar, and I'm sure many more on their lists. So what is wrong with that picture? If Maxlife is the special gold fluid that works in all automatic transmissions, then why is that "cheaper" fluid not used in the factory and every dealer of all the cars just listed? Problem is there are untold hours of transmission dyno time spent formulating the fluid for the OEM transmission. Friction modifiers are the big one, and like Trav mentions seal and friction material compatibility. Any stories you hear of the old LS400 transmissions having problems most always is because of using a substitute non OEM fluid, same with the older Mercedes transmissions, both are the most bullet proof transmissions ever made and will out last any other part of the car as long as maintained and the proper fluid is used.
Yeah I say you could use maxlife but you need to use brand new seals and frictions converter etc. and make sure the materials of the new parts are compatible with the maxlife. Then your next fun thing is to adjust clutch application scheduals so the friction modifiers and friction materials match the same clutch slip and pressure applications that the OEM guys established, you will need a transmission dyno and proper data collection to accomplish it. So isn't it better to just use the correct stuff?

 

[dave1251]

Allison is the only transmission reported having issues with DEXRON VI. The HMMWVS we have have Allison's and they get DEXRON VI per contract. How widespread was the Viton seal issue?

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by Exhaustgases
Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by JustinH
I'm surprised I haven't heard the argument for Maxlife in this application.

I have used Maxlife fluid in Scion/Toyota/Lexus and Hyundai applications with zero problems.

$17 per gallon.


Maxlife is a dex VI clone and works fine applications that require a dex fluid. It is not the be all and end all, it is the jack of all trades of transmission fluids and master of none.
Some AW units spec dex fluid so why would it be an problem?

Trav, right on. Transmission fluid is a fine art as well as engineering. Maxlife is touted as a fits all fluid, for Toyota, Mercedes, GM, Ford, Mopar, and I'm sure many more on their lists. So what is wrong with that picture? If Maxlife is the special gold fluid that works in all automatic transmissions, then why is that "cheaper" fluid not used in the factory and every dealer of all the cars just listed? Problem is there are untold hours of transmission dyno time spent formulating the fluid for the OEM transmission. Friction modifiers are the big one, and like Trav mentions seal and friction material compatibility. Any stories you hear of the old LS400 transmissions having problems most always is because of using a substitute non OEM fluid, same with the older Mercedes transmissions, both are the most bullet proof transmissions ever made and will out last any other part of the car as long as maintained and the proper fluid is used.
Yeah I say you could use maxlife but you need to use brand new seals and frictions converter etc. and make sure the materials of the new parts are compatible with the maxlife. Then your next fun thing is to adjust clutch application scheduals so the friction modifiers and friction materials match the same clutch slip and pressure applications that the OEM guys established, you will need a transmission dyno and proper data collection to accomplish it. So isn't it better to just use the correct stuff?



Are talking about Lexus KS400's which used a DEXRON III clone and in some years the owners manual stated to use DEXRON III?

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

JWS 3309 is the Aisin spec fo ATF for some of their transmissions. Toyota Type T-IV is JWS 3309 spec. I've never looked at a bottle of Type T-IV ATF but i expect somewhere on that bottle one will see JWS 3309.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Allison is the only transmission reported having issues with DEXRON VI. The HMMWVS we have have Allison's and they get DEXRON VI per contract. How widespread was the Viton seal issue?


Some older 4spd AW auto units stated in the manual no synthetic fluids in the transmissions but at the same time having no issues requiring synthetic engine oil, so its not a fear of synthetics in general.
They were afraid of seal leaks. Dex III only no back spec to dexVI. The GM 4T-465 used in other euro car could use dex VI.

The whole back spec business was only for GM built transmissions and did not include other manufacturers that used a dex spec fluid of which there were many.
ClineBarger would have a better idea on how many units were involved before the switch to serial number xxxx when it was okay to use the VI but it is my understanding there were a lot of early units involved, it was a common problem.
On euro cars in general you don't play experimenting games with universal and non spec fluids, the cost of a simple mistake can be enormous.

On some older AW 4spds that failed from clutch failure and had low pressure its is not uncommon to find the fluid was changed with a universal earlier in the units life. It make one wonder would it have lost pressure due to internal leaking if a mineral based spec fluid had been used? I have no idea but I do know it is not uncommon to find ones that have used spec 3309 or T-IV (same thing) to see north of 200K and still operating with no issues.

.

 

[Chuckh]

For what it is worth, some Volkswagen owners use Type T-IV because the VW Dealer's fluid is horribly expensive. These days you can get Type T-IV cheap depending on where you look. Now if WS was cheaper that would be nice but it is cheaper than the VW Dealer's equivalent that sells for close to $25 per liter.

 

[dan_erickson]

I have used Max Life in place of Toyota T-IV before with no issues.

 

[Kira]

After reading these threads for years I've concluded that they're pretty much the same. This one has been the best.

I was sucked down the transmission fluid rabbit hole via Volvo's dear fluid and Mobil3309 whilst maintaining 5 AW units.
In short, I went through Toyota's T-IV, real Mobil 3309 then went to Maxlife and Wolf's Head synthetics.
Then, Aisin fluid became available. I just used it in an application (my car) which had to have reached 100% synthetic through D&Fs.
I felt an improvement.
I'm sticking with mineral based fluids for these AW units from now on.

WARNING: Snotty sounding comment to follow.

I feel many of these threads' posts are from people who have a stash of fluid from some previous vehicle or through compulsive "sale" buying.