Aircraft partnership, non flying.

[Cujet]

I am considering an aircraft partnership in our company's Extra 300L, a plane that I can't fly, for various practical reasons. I'm not insurable in it without extensive training and hours, both of which I don't want. My health is not great, and I have issues with anything more than a few "G's" (that I've never been able to address in my 37 years of flying). I have absolutely no desire to do aerobatics, don't want to fly the plane in a travel type mode, and at this point, I can hardly climb in and out of the thing.

The upside is that I may be able to get it for an absolutely fantastic price. The downside is that I must keep it for some time before I can sell it. Let's say a year or two.

The other partner is a world class professional pilot, and has been, pretty much the only pilot in this plane since new. It's not likely he will put many hours on it, if history is any guide. His interest is much like mine, buy low, keep, sell after a time.

The plane has 250 hours total time, about 100 hours on the rip-snorting BPE high performance engine, about 30 hours on the prop, a Dynon skyview EFIS and is in wonderful shape.

Thoughts?

 

[tomcat27]

That plane is beautiful!
Certainly you have a passion for it - and you are familiar with the industry. Someone more practical may say: "how else could you make $ with the same money". However, to me, it depends how certain you are that you will come out ahead, or at least not lose anything. You know what space, annuals, etc. cost....

 

[jhellwig]

I don’t know anything about planes but if you cant and don’t want to fly it it looks like it is only good for the insurance payout when it is a smoking heap on the ground.

It looks like fun to mess around it.

 

[Astro14]

The kind of plane I would love to own!

So, you're looking at this purely as an investment?

 

[atikovi]

How much does it cost?
How much will you have to put into it before you sell it for license maintenance insurance storage.
How much income can it make while you own it.
How much will you be able to sell it for.

Sounds like this is purely a business proposition as you have no desire to fly it yourself. That can be good or bad. Good you have no emotional attachment to it. Bad that it's just a plain asset you will never be able to enjoy.

 

[tom slick]

You didn’t mention your upside. Other than bragging rights what do you get out of the deal?

 

[Cujet]

You didn’t mention your upside. Other than bragging rights what do you get out of the deal?

Let's say I get a good deal, and sell at below market value in two years. I come out ahead financially. It's a long term investment.

 

[UncleDave]

will you have to be kicking in a monthly nut or will you be renting your way out of the payment?

 

[Cujet]

The kind of plane I would love to own!

So, you're looking at this purely as an investment?

Yes, as an investment.

Don't know if you saw my post about getting stuck in the thing.... But I was sitting in it, right where it is in that picture, in the middle of the night, nobody around, and could not get out for hours (at least I was comfortable). I almost called 911, but instead was able to wiggle up and brace myself a little at a time to get up. I was utterly exhausted by the time I was able to stand up.

I have some health issues that result in massive muscle fatigue (mitochondrial dysfunction) and at times I don't have the strength to lift 5 pounds. Prednisone helps immensely and I recover from exertion much faster with pred.

 

[Cujet]

will you have to be kicking in a monthly nut or will you be renting your way out of the payment?

No payment, I can afford it.

 

[Taildragger]

I can 'store' and occasionally 'exercise' it for ya.

 

[UncleDave]

No payment, I can afford it.

Then it comes down to what the rate of return is vs other potential investments.
If you are comfortable with that and whatever the risks there may be then go for it.

As you know planes that value cycles with TBO. If you aren't using and some one else is they are shipping away at its value.

I can proffer 2 experiences.

1. my stepdad wishes he'd have bought a cessna 210 instead of renting for decades.Looking at the rise in value I agree.

I dont know squat about the plane in question, but had near disaster investment myself.

2. I declined an opportunity to buy into a lance air IV, and shortly after it crashed killing the pilot and occupants, the investigation showed a vent wasn't installed in a wing tank correctly and the fuel wouldnt pump so the fuel was in the plane and registering but it couldn't get to the engine.

This incident made me wary of any non big name plane.

Eager to hear either way, and thats a beautiful piece for sure.

Dave

 

[supton]

What's the risk? You would know more about it than I, but I'm guessing there's a risk of parts breakage. What about the other guy bailing?

 

[Cujet]

2. I declined an opportunity to buy into a lance air IV, and shortly after it crashed killing the pilot and occupants, the investigation showed a vent wasn't installed in a wing tank correctly and the fuel wouldnt pump so the fuel was in the plane and registering but it couldn't get to the engine.

On Feb 09, a similar partnership plane crashed, for similar reasons. On the 7th a fuel line came loose and they safely landed in a field. The pilot tightened the "B" nut and took off safely.

I immediately advised the other partner to remove the 90 degree fittings on the fuel lines and utilize only straight fittings and sufficient line length and flexibility to ensure adequate engine movement without stressing the fittings. Nope, super-tight was the solution. It's good to note the plane only made it to 1400 feet and about 3-4 miles from the field before the problem happened in both occurrences.

Two days later, the same thing happened. This time was not as successful, as the gear collapsed on landing, the engine mount bent back, the wings buckled and the pilot was very mildly injured:

Sometimes things happen due to the mistakes of others. I'm strongly considering avoiding the risk of a partnership. The risk-reward ratio is not really all that favorable in the end.

In the end, this glider is much more my speed: (that's me on the left side of the pic)

 

[UncleDave]

Yeesh - nasty.


You being able to service the craft is probably a game changer in the equation.

The proposed partner was this guy - at the time I had no idea what a total d-bag he was, but it started becoming apparent quickly he was a total liar charlatan and criminal. I went flying with him once and he was so erratic I said never again. Ended up killing himself and a Chinese lady.

I did a couple hundredK in business with him and extricated myself from the relationship successfully.

The Long Sad, Tragic Story Is Over: David Riggs' Remains ID'ed | Aero-News Network

Wayward Pilot, With Multiple Convictions, Confirmed As Dead Opinion, Analysis and Observation by ANN CEO/Editor-In-Chief, Jim Campbell A| Published: Sat, Sep 21, 2013 | Aero-News Network

www.aero-news.net

 

[Taildragger]

On Feb 09, a similar partnership plane crashed, for similar reasons. On the 7th a fuel line came loose and they safely landed in a field. The pilot tightened the "B" nut and took off safely.

I immediately advised the other partner to remove the 90 degree fittings on the fuel lines and utilize only straight fittings and sufficient line length and flexibility to ensure adequate engine movement without stressing the fittings. Nope, super-tight was the solution. It's good to note the plane only made it to 1400 feet and about 3-4 miles from the field before the problem happened in both occurrences.

Two days later, the same thing happened. This time was not as successful, as the gear collapsed on landing, the engine mount bent back, the wings buckled and the pilot was very mildly injured:

Sometimes things happen due to the mistakes of others. I'm strongly considering avoiding the risk of a partnership. The risk-reward ratio is not really all that favorable in the end.

In the end, this glider is much more my speed: (that's me on the left side of the pic)

Stemme??

 

[Cujet]

Stemme??

Yes, Stemme S10-VT. (turbocharged Rotax 115HP engine)

What an absolutely wonderful airplane!!!!!! 75 foot wingspan, glide ratio 50 to 1.

Here it is in Stausberg, Germany (at the factory) prior to importing to the US. I was tasked with accumulating the first 25 hours before disassembly and shipping. First flight was to Penemunde, where Von Braun built the V2 rockets.

 

[Taildragger]

I have a few Stemme S10-VT hours logged. Beautiful airplanes, just kinda goofy maintenance when Stemme calls the Rotax engine their own.

 

[wings&wheels]

Seems like fairly straightforward analysis, from a purely financial perspective;

cost of buy in + recurring costs over expected term + costs of your capital or foregone income on buy in $/expected term of the investment - expected sale value. Don't underestimate your costs or overestimate your return. Another variable is the economy; what will a potential downturn have on the future value of what is a truly if not one of the ultimate discretionary income purchases???

Doesn't reflect the intangible value of access to a really cool bird!

Good luck whatever you choose...I'd seriously consider it but I may not make the most rational decisions when it comes to motor toys.

First world challenges

 

[dkryan]

THIS.....!

“.......Don't underestimate your costs or overestimate your return. Another variable is the economy; what will a potential downturn have on the future value of what is a truly if not one of the ultimate discretionary income purchases???”

And this........!

“Good luck whatever you choose...”