As a mature adult, how likely would you consider that?
Air India Flight AI171 (Boeing 787-8) Crash
- Thread starter john_pifer
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Already pretty well debunked. The crew would have no reason to worry about securing a dead turbofan at that phase of flight and their SOPs would have precluded that.
This was not a propeller airplane after all.
Zero. But most conspiracy theories aren’t grounded in reality or practicality.
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What happened to the fuel contamination hypothesis?
That sounded the most realistic and plausible,
That sounded the most realistic and plausible,
MolaKule
Staff member
That is the most irresponsible conspiracy theory I have seen so far, and has never been put forth in the popular press as a valid theory.
Once the FDR data is written, it can't be faked. Neither can the FADEC logging data.
If you have ever heard of the FADEC, it stores engine parameters. FADEC systems includes engine control, safety and diagnostics and data logging. The various engine functions like speed, pressure and temperature of manifold, power setting, etc. are sensed and controlled by advanced processors which collect data and establish required settings for optimum engine performance. Engine logging data can be downloaded for further analysis.
I am confident that the downloaded data from the FDR and the engine's FADEC will be thoroughly analyzed and compared.
https://aviationweek.com/mro/emerging-technologies/next-gen-fadec-systems-pursue-digital-advances
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If you lose an engine on take on the Airbus, once the flight path is stable, and above 400, the PF calls for “ ECAM ACTIONS “ which is the engine power loss drill.
The thrust lever on the dead engine is brought back to idle ( with two pilot confirmation ) to see if it will auto relight within 30 seconds , and if it doesn’t relight, the engine master is selected off ( with confirmation ) to secure the engine.
If both pilots don’t confirm the correct engine master ( you will realize if the wrong TL is reduced to idle and could push it back up , but it’s too late if you shut off the wrong engine master ) , you now have a dual power loss - just above 400 feet.
It’s not just with turbo props.
From Airbus:
When an abnormal situation is detected by the flight crew, the first priority of the flight crew is to
maintain a safe flight path before the flight crew performs any READ & DO actions. For takeoff or
go around, the flight crew should delay READ & DO actions until the aircraft reaches a minimum
of 400 ft AGL. This is an appropriate compromise between stabilization of the aircraft and a delay
in the actions.
ALL
Maintain directional control on runway.
“ENGINE FIRE” or “POWER LOSS”...................................................... ANNOUNCE PM
AT VR............................................................................................................ROTATE PF
PITCH..................................................................................................TARGET 12.5° PF
POSITIVE CLIMB.......................................................................................CONFIRM PM
“POSITIVE RATE”.................................................................................. ANNOUNCE PM
“GEAR UP”.................................................................................................... ORDER PF
L/G lever................................................................................................. SELECT UP PM
Above 100 ft AGL:
SRS ORDERS.......................................................................................FOLLOW PF
RUDDER......................................................................................................TRIM PF
AP....................................................................................................................ON PF
THRUST................................................................ CONFIRM MAN FLEX/TOGA PM
FLIGHT PATH......................................................................................MONITOR PM
Above 400 ft AGL, minimum V2:
HDG SEL...................................................................................PULL (IF RQRD) PF
ECAM ACTIONS..................................................................................... ORDER PF
ECAM actions may be initiated below 400 ft AGL provided that the flight path is safe.
ECAM ACTIONS...........................................................................ACCOMPLISH PM
When engine secured(1):
“ENGINE SECURED”...................................................................... ANNOUNCE PM
“STOP ECAM”.........................................................................................ORDER
The thrust lever on the dead engine is brought back to idle ( with two pilot confirmation ) to see if it will auto relight within 30 seconds , and if it doesn’t relight, the engine master is selected off ( with confirmation ) to secure the engine.
If both pilots don’t confirm the correct engine master ( you will realize if the wrong TL is reduced to idle and could push it back up , but it’s too late if you shut off the wrong engine master ) , you now have a dual power loss - just above 400 feet.
It’s not just with turbo props.
From Airbus:
When an abnormal situation is detected by the flight crew, the first priority of the flight crew is to
maintain a safe flight path before the flight crew performs any READ & DO actions. For takeoff or
go around, the flight crew should delay READ & DO actions until the aircraft reaches a minimum
of 400 ft AGL. This is an appropriate compromise between stabilization of the aircraft and a delay
in the actions.
ALL
Maintain directional control on runway.
“ENGINE FIRE” or “POWER LOSS”...................................................... ANNOUNCE PM
AT VR............................................................................................................ROTATE PF
PITCH..................................................................................................TARGET 12.5° PF
POSITIVE CLIMB.......................................................................................CONFIRM PM
“POSITIVE RATE”.................................................................................. ANNOUNCE PM
“GEAR UP”.................................................................................................... ORDER PF
L/G lever................................................................................................. SELECT UP PM
Above 100 ft AGL:
SRS ORDERS.......................................................................................FOLLOW PF
RUDDER......................................................................................................TRIM PF
AP....................................................................................................................ON PF
THRUST................................................................ CONFIRM MAN FLEX/TOGA PM
FLIGHT PATH......................................................................................MONITOR PM
Above 400 ft AGL, minimum V2:
HDG SEL...................................................................................PULL (IF RQRD) PF
ECAM ACTIONS..................................................................................... ORDER PF
ECAM actions may be initiated below 400 ft AGL provided that the flight path is safe.
ECAM ACTIONS...........................................................................ACCOMPLISH PM
When engine secured(1):
“ENGINE SECURED”...................................................................... ANNOUNCE PM
“STOP ECAM”.........................................................................................ORDER
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MolaKule
Staff member
Simple Flying had this snippet today:
"...Investigators are examining all possible causes behind the crash. Apparently, a week after the incident, at least three Air India training pilots from the airline’s Boeing 787 fleet conducted simulator sessions in Mumbai to replicate likely scenarios that may have led to the accident.
They attempted to model electrical failures capable of causing a dual-engine flame-out, but were unable to recreate conditions that matched the actual event. They also used the precise trim sheet data from flight 171, a key document that records an aircraft’s weight distribution and center of gravity, to assess if loading imbalances could have contributed...:
https://simpleflying.com/investigators-submit-report-air-india-crash/
"...Investigators are examining all possible causes behind the crash. Apparently, a week after the incident, at least three Air India training pilots from the airline’s Boeing 787 fleet conducted simulator sessions in Mumbai to replicate likely scenarios that may have led to the accident.
They attempted to model electrical failures capable of causing a dual-engine flame-out, but were unable to recreate conditions that matched the actual event. They also used the precise trim sheet data from flight 171, a key document that records an aircraft’s weight distribution and center of gravity, to assess if loading imbalances could have contributed...:
https://simpleflying.com/investigators-submit-report-air-india-crash/
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Digital electronics can have extremely rare failure conditions that may be impossible to replicate through trial and error.
A new article from “The AirCurrent”. A generally reputable source for aviation/airline news.
“The ongoing investigation into the cause of the June 12 crash of Air India flight 171 has narrowed its focus to the movement of the engine fuel control switches, following an analysis of the Boeing 787’s integrated flight and voice data recorders, multiple people with knowledge of the investigation tell The Air Current.”
“At this point in the inquiry, the data available to the investigators does not indicate a mechanical or design issue with the 787 or its two GE Aerospace GEnx-1B engines, TAC is told.”
https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/ai171-investigation-fuel-control-switches/
“The ongoing investigation into the cause of the June 12 crash of Air India flight 171 has narrowed its focus to the movement of the engine fuel control switches, following an analysis of the Boeing 787’s integrated flight and voice data recorders, multiple people with knowledge of the investigation tell The Air Current.”
“At this point in the inquiry, the data available to the investigators does not indicate a mechanical or design issue with the 787 or its two GE Aerospace GEnx-1B engines, TAC is told.”
https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/ai171-investigation-fuel-control-switches/
GON
$150 Site Donor 2025
Interesting article, thanks for posting. The article implies possibility of human error over mechanical failure. But all just speculation as nothing official has been released by any responsible person or party.
Interesting bit of informed speculation from a man who has been writing about aviation for years and has also actually worked in the industry.
The thing is that the piece has photos of the switches and they are guarded and also have to be lifted to move, so deliberate action would be required.
The FDR should reveal whether they were in fact moved to the cutoff position.
If this is what precipitated this accident, then that leaves either a major cognitive lapse by one of the cockpit crew or suicidality as far as I can see.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Unauthorized person in the cockpit?
That could be a possibility if this is true.
Good point, although that person would have had to fight off the two pilots to reach the switches and the CVR should reveal some sounds of a struggle or a third voice that shouldn't have been there.
Why would someone MacGyver their way into the cockpit, then Van Damme two pilots only to flip some switches and not just push the nose down? Makes no sense.
Remember that Alaska deadheading pilot who got all whacked out on hallucinogenic mushrooms and tried to pull the fire handles in an ERJ-175 a while back?
https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/flight-tracking-news/major-incident/alaska-pilot-horizon/
If he’d been successful, it might have resulted in the engines shutting down.
I can’t say 100% because I’m not sure of the logic of the FCS, FADECs, etc when the aircraft is in the air, but when it’s on the ground, those handles close the engine fuel and hydraulic shutoff valves.
Somebody would probably know…
Paging @MolaKule
Wouldn’t be the first time, however.
There are also examples of crew locking their partners out of the cockpit and then running the aircraft into a mountain, taking a whole planeload of passengers and other crew along on their journey to oblivion.
I'm thinking of Germanwings 9525.
There are more ambiguous accidents that may have involved suicidality among the cockpit crew, like Egyptair 990 and Malaysian Air 370, although we'll probably never have any solid answers on what caused the loss of that flight.
I'm thinking of Germanwings 9525.
There are more ambiguous accidents that may have involved suicidality among the cockpit crew, like Egyptair 990 and Malaysian Air 370, although we'll probably never have any solid answers on what caused the loss of that flight.
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MolaKule
Staff member
The FADEC has at least two voltage sources as described here in the requirements for Section 4:
Section 4, FADEC power supply control system design scheme
https://www.icas.org/icas_archive/ICAS2022/data/papers/ICAS2022_0023_paper.pdf
Section 4, FADEC power supply control system design scheme
https://www.icas.org/icas_archive/ICAS2022/data/papers/ICAS2022_0023_paper.pdf
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Actually, I wasn’t thinking of violent breach. Now I do.
I was thinking someone was in cockpit as passenger and did something dumb. Remember that Aeroflot A310 and kid?
I do remember that.
Here, you wanna take control for awhile?
I wonder what role Vodka may have played?
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